Dartzeel NHB-18NS or ARC Ref 5 se?

[Mike Lavigne]

By all accounts it is a very good phono section, comparable to some very expensive stand-alone models. See the comments in Stereophile and 6 Moons.

Cascais,

congrats on your decision with the dart pre. and your thinking about the new version of the dart pre.

recent visitors to my room have been quite amazed with my vinyl performance and I think one big reason is the new phono stages in the new dart preamp. and the fact they are integrated into the preamp chassis and are battery powered gives them a step up on anything out there. they are super quiet and super dynamic.

what I'm saying is that the new dart pre phono performance is up there with anything at any price.....for a number of reasons.

then add on the advantage of elimination of additional interconnects, power cords, resonance treatments, rack space and it's a slam dunk way to go.

 

[Cascais]

Cascais,


then add on the advantage of elimination of additional interconnects, power cords, resonance treatments, rack space and it's a slam dunk way to go.

Right Mike. In my case I won't be needing my present phono preamp, vibration control, expensive power cord and interconnect. But what will I do with the empty shelf?

 

[microstrip]

(...) then add on the advantage of elimination of additional interconnects, power cords, resonance treatments, rack space and it's a slam dunk way to go.

(...) But what will I do with the empty shelf?

Mike,

Advantage? Not for serious audiophiles!!!

More seriously, I have no doubt in your case it is an advantage - you have a dedicated room and plenty of expertise, time, possibilities and resources to tune your system elsewhere. But for most of us the possibility of using separate units is sometimes a benefice.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Right Mike. In my case I won't be needing my present phono preamp, vibration control, expensive power cord and interconnect. But what will I do with the empty shelf?

what I do is stage my Lp liner and jacket in that rack spot. it makes for an easier Lp listening flow. and once you train your muscle memory with the process it's very easy as you don't need to move so much while changing Lps.

 

[Cascais]

Mike,

Advantage? Not for serious audiophiles!!!

More seriously, I have no doubt in your case it is an advantage - you have a dedicated room and plenty of expertise, time, possibilities and resources to tune your system elsewhere. But for most of us the possibility of using separate units is sometimes a benefice.

I have no problem with separates and in fact my vinyl listening now is very good using an Ayre Evolution and some good wire. I always seem to have a space problem although my present setup is perfect, no wires, etc., showing. I am not choosing the NHB-18NS for the phono section which for me is a bonus, since most of my music is on CD (although the best sound is from the SME). Maybe the 18NS's quality phono section derives from the its technology, i.e lack of switching and other noise producing elements in the signal path which would be a problem in many other integrated phono sections. I wouldn't have space for an ARC Ref. Phono 3 since my system is in ordinary living space not a dedicated room, the stuff of dreams, as long as it has comfy chairs, books, magazines.

 

[Cascais]

Today the new (for me) Dart preamp arrived by DHL, and the one thing I can say right away about the comparison between it and the Ref 5SE is that it's heavier by about 10 kilos. So fetching it out of the box was an adventure, as was the dismantling of the old system to fit the new piece. I am cramped and so there is a lot of twisting, bending, lifting, etc., a royal pain. That was made worse by the fading light and the eccentric placing of inputs on the Dart, with the result when I played a disc for the first time, no sound from the left channel on CD or phono. I had to get down on hands and knees with a flashlight to see that I had missed the left output XLR. Relief. The thing works. What are my impressions? I am always critical the first few times I listen to a new component and think that so far the Dart isn't as spectacular as the ARC based system, not as lush which may turn out to be a good thing. Probably just getting used to the sound of ss again after living with tubes for the past six or more years. After its road trip the NHB-18NS has to get used to its new location. And I haven't tested the phono yet, or used the Zeel connectors. Also it needs new batteries and is running on AC. So lots of room for improvement. But right now Ray Brown and Jimmy Rowles sound pretty damn good. As Good As It Gets.

 

[asiufy]

Cascais,

If you're not using the Zeel connections, at least go with RCAs, they're better than the XLRs on the darTZeels. Both input and outputs.


cheers,
alex

 

[Cascais]

Cascais,

If you're not using the Zeel connections, at least go with RCAs, they're better than the XLRs on the darTZeels. Both input and outputs.


cheers,
alex

I will be using the Zeels but today was just too lazy to bother. Besides I wanted to compare the XLR with the Zeels.

 

[microstrip]

I will be using the Zeels but today was just too lazy to bother. Besides I wanted to compare the XLR with the Zeels.

Another good think of using both Dart's is that they can be used with long thin BNC cables, that are not expensive. You can locate the power between the speakers and have the whole system far away from the center. I remember had mine with 10 m long BNC cables. As far as I remember, even if we use it in the AC position, the batteries should be fresh in working condition - they work as filters.

 

[asiufy]

Me too! I had 10 meter long BNCs running below the floorboards in my room. It was a cool sight to see just the little NHB-108 there in the middle of the speakers, and the two BNCs popping out of the floor
Not to mention that imaging improved considerably with the system off the side...

 

[Cascais]

A weekend of mixed results, including some audio agony over the weekend with the 18NS inconsistent as if it was breaking in, like my Ref 5 SE when new. I installed Zeel cables which resulted in no immediate improvement, but by Sunday some improvement. My experience indicates that any new component, even used, has to settle in a new environment, adjust to the current, etc. Today much improvement as the sound soared above what I was used to, but the jury is still out on which is preferable, the ARC or the darTZeel, tube vs solid state. The Ref 5 SE seems to impart a golden glow over all material while the Dart delivers faster transients with more excitement. The Dart is still running on AC so when batteries are installed, there may be future developments.

 

[Cascais]

Yesterday a day to listen and decide. I was consistently finding the highs from the Dart very "hi-fi", exaggerated and lacking coherence. At some point I decided that the interconnect between the CDp (emm Labs XDS1-V2) and preamp might be the culprit for in my opinion the NHB-18NS has strong treble and the KS1136 is silver wire which I have always associated with brightness. It worked beautifully with the tube Ref 5 SE but maybe not with the ss Dart. So I substituted a Transparent Music Link, copper IC, and voilá. Immediate change, highs tamed, rock-solid sound. I think I can do better but am out of the woods.

 

[microstrip]

Yesterday a day to listen and decide. I was consistently finding the highs from the Dart very "hi-fi", exaggerated and lacking coherence. At some point I decided that the interconnect between the CDp (emm Labs XDS1-V2) and preamp might be the culprit for in my opinion the NHB-18NS has strong treble and the KS1136 is silver wire which I have always associated with brightness. It worked beautifully with the tube Ref 5 SE but maybe not with the ss Dart. So I substituted a Transparent Music Link, copper IC, and voilá. Immediate change, highs tamed, rock-solid sound. I think I can do better but am out of the woods.

Probably an interaction with other pieces of your equipment. I have used Shunyata Antares / Orion and Kimber KS1036/KS6035 with the DartZeels with great success. IMHO the KS1136 is not bright, but very detailed and nuanced. I often refer to it when I want to affirm that silver cables do not sound forcefully bright. I still keep one pair of KS1136 in my systems.

From http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue50/kimber.htm
The KS 1126 and KS 1026, blends of silver and copper, are most beautiful performers and more forgiving than their all silver brothers(KS1136). A very good value, they will be an excellent match in systems that need a bit of smoothing to come to life.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yesterday a day to listen and decide. I was consistently finding the highs from the Dart very "hi-fi", exaggerated and lacking coherence. At some point I decided that the interconnect between the CDp (emm Labs XDS1-V2) and preamp might be the culprit for in my opinion the NHB-18NS has strong treble and the KS1136 is silver wire which I have always associated with brightness. It worked beautifully with the tube Ref 5 SE but maybe not with the ss Dart. So I substituted a Transparent Music Link, copper IC, and voilá. Immediate change, highs tamed, rock-solid sound. I think I can do better but am out of the woods.

Cascais,

interesting result.

forgive me if you already know this stuff but I'm just making sure; do you understand the impedance adjustments on the 108 amp? and also the input adjustments for input type and ground on the preamp inputs?

are your cables RCA or XLR?

I'm just wanting to make sure that the dart gear is set up right.

 

[Cascais]

Probably an interaction with other pieces of your equipment. I have used Shunyata Antares / Orion and Kimber KS1036/KS6035 with the DartZeels with great success. IMHO the KS1136 is not bright, but very detailed and nuanced. I often refer to it when I want to affirm that silver cables do not sound forcefully bright. I still keep one pair of KS1136 in my systems.

From http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue50/kimber.htm
The KS 1126 and KS 1026, blends of silver and copper, are most beautiful performers and more forgiving than their all silver brothers(KS1136). A very good value, they will be an excellent match in systems that need a bit of smoothing to come to life.

The transformation of my system with KS1136 between the Ref 5 SE and CDp was immense but not with the Dart. I agree about the KS1126 which I had in my system for years before recently getting rid of it. I think that it would have fit better with the Dart. However the Transparent, though not in that league, seems to be performing well giving me a result Never Heard Before.

 

[Cascais]

Cascais,

interesting result.

forgive me if you already know this stuff but I'm just making sure; do you understand the impedance adjustments on the 108 amp? and also the input adjustments for input type and ground on the preamp inputs?

are your cables RCA or XLR?

I'm just wanting to make sure that the dart gear is set up right.

I am aware of those adjustments but forgot about them when setting up. I am using standard RCA for phono and XLR for the CD input. Zeel for output to 108.

 

[asiufy]

Cascais,

If you can, don't use the XLR, go with RCA for your sources. And don't use silver cables on darTZeel, specially power cables, and also specially no Nordost. Sure-fire way to destroy its beauty.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am aware of those adjustments but forgot about them when setting up. I am using standard RCA for phono and XLR for the CD input. Zeel for output to 108.

Cascais,

If you can, don't use the XLR, go with RCA for your sources. And don't use silver cables on darTZeel, specially power cables, and also specially no Nordost. Sure-fire way to destroy its beauty.

the good news about XLR and the darTZeel pre is that when you get around to upgrading your 'original' 18NS to the new version, the XLR input sounds very very good. this was an important issue to Herve in the new design and he nailed it. I used my Trinity dac into this input and it was astonishingly great.

as far as silver cables and darTZeel; I don't entirely agree. but the dart will tell you everything whether you want to hear it or not. no coloration to cover up anything. so when using silver everything else has to be very right and natural. then silver + darTZeel = truth. I use silver phono cables for my Durand Telos Sapphire tonearm and it is amazingly great sounding. but every step has to be right.

 

[microstrip]

Cascais,

If you can, don't use the XLR, go with RCA for your sources. And don't use silver cables on darTZeel, specially power cables, and also specially no Nordost. Sure-fire way to destroy its beauty.

Although the RCA of the old NH18NS is known to be of better sounding quality than the XLR input, many sources, particularly CDs and DACs, sound much better in balanced mode than in single ended (RCA). So we must try to know what is the best sounding connection.

And I know of one very happy DartZeel user using Nordost!

 

[Cascais]

Thanks for the tips which I am absorbing. On CD I can do better although on small groups, chamber music and jazz, the Dart is better than the ARC. However to this point I am underwhelmed by the phono which is strange. In the old setup, with the Ref 5 SE and Ayre Evolution phono section (set to 47k ohms), plus Lyra Skala, the phono was better than CD reproduction. Now it's the opposite since the Dart phono (836 ohms), while good, is not as full and weighty as before with weaker bass. I am going to be patient with this until the new batteries are installed, but I could use the Ayre again for phono, even though the Dart phono should be better. Not to my ears so far. The stand-alone Ayre Evolution is a very good phono stage.