Finally I think my choice has been resolved as I received the darTZeel NHB-18NS with fresh batteries back from the dealer. He hooked it up for me and after minimal warmup we began to listen. The result was stunning. The tenor sax and trumpet stood out with perfect timbre on Shelley Manne and his Men as never heard before; and the duo of Jimmy Rowles and Ray Brown were in the room audibly, Ray Brown's base a solid entity. A test of the phono resulted in being no worse than the separate Ayre, probably better but that will take more listening. However there is a guitar smash in Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms ("The Man's Too Strong") that has defeated every previous playing but came its structure through clear as a bell with zero distortion. What has happened between the last time I had the Dart here and was disappointed and now? Maybe battery power or assurance that the unit was in perfect condition, but whatever the cause it clearly outclasses the ARC, Ref 5SE, as good as that piece is. Today I will be doing more comparison but while the jury is still out the evidence is piling up in favor of the Swiss. I hope not to be premature in my judgment but don't think so.
Dartzeel NHB-18NS or ARC Ref 5 se?
- Thread starter Cascais
- Start date
Congratulations on arriving at a conclusion.
It would benefit the rest of us if you could elaborate on why you think the dartzeel outclasses the ARC. For example, does it get closer to what you feel sounds real in one aspect that is very important to you, or in all aspects of the performance?
Thanks.
It would benefit the rest of us if you could elaborate on why you think the dartzeel outclasses the ARC. For example, does it get closer to what you feel sounds real in one aspect that is very important to you, or in all aspects of the performance?
Thanks.
Glad you have been able to come to a decision.
Sounds similar to when I changed to the NHB-18NS from my BAT and ARC ref2 phono, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
The Dart was more transparent - very much so on digital with greater detail. On phono the ARC was probably a match for the Dart phono, however the NHB-18NS pre/phono combination sounded better than the ARC+BAT. The Bat 52 was the weak link. I considered keeping the ARC as a second phono but needed to sell unfortunately. Anyway the NHB-18NS is a one box solution and was quieter than the ARC so had no regrets. It does not need any warm up time either. As you have the Dart power amp makes a lot of sense.
btw Who is your dealer in Portugal, is it cosmos by any chance?
To this point I have had only about two hours listening time, but first impressions are important. Thus I can say that the sound image was more vivid, yet realistic, the timbre of the instruments more true than with the ARC, and the bass, especially string bass, was mighty, yet realistic. No sign of bloat or muddiness. I'll expand on this in greater detail once I've listened more.
Cascais,
congrats on the decision. both ways were solid choices. I think that the presentation of the 18NS pre/phono and 108 amp do stand the test of time in terms of allowing the music to flow freely. I lived with that combination for many years. I've always viewed the darts as naturally 'like music'......not like tubes, or like solid state. they make you just want to listen.
enjoy.
congrats on the decision. both ways were solid choices. I think that the presentation of the 18NS pre/phono and 108 amp do stand the test of time in terms of allowing the music to flow freely. I lived with that combination for many years. I've always viewed the darts as naturally 'like music'......not like tubes, or like solid state. they make you just want to listen.
enjoy.
This sounds familiar and I would agree with your listening impressions. Also adopting the one-box solution frees up a lot of power cords, i.c.s, as well as a phono stage. Re the phono stage I think that the short signal path from cartridge to built-in phono, is a plus. If this goes through I will be selling. My ultimate aim is to have the 18NS upgraded in Geneva but right now don't see (hear) the need. The only area in which the Ref 5se is superior to the 18NS is in ease of use, remote control functions and volume indicator. If you don't remember to turn down the gain you can be in for a nasty surprise, especially if you're going to listen to Carmina Burana. The new model solves this problem. My dealer is Imacústica in Lisboa.
Thanks Mike Lavigne. Your advice is always appreciated. This was a tough choice since I liked the ARC very much and my record goes back to the SP9. But the proof is in the listening and there seems to be no going back. Besides having the darTZeel pair makes for good synergy. They are joined by the top Kimber Select KS1136 but I might try the Zeel connection some day.
that 'zeel' step-up in performance will bring that little bit more of a lowered sense of a reproduction chain. just a closer touch to the musical flow. cohesion and authority that little bit better. not night and day, but a smile producer none-the-less.
Although I will be very happy to congratulate you on maximizing synergy of the system, something I too often preach
, I will disagree on the importance of "first impressions". IMHO first impressions are just on the differences and are usually misleading. Personally only after a significant time (weeks) I can decide what I prefer - and many times my preference changed during the evaluation time. Surely, YMMV, as people say.Surely, but it includes a phono unit. In my case I needed going to the REF 40 (Anniversary) + Phono REF2 to outclass the old DartZeel preamplifier.
Cascias purchased a used older version of the 18NS and had the batteries freshened.
yes; the list price of the new one is $40k ($44k with 2 phono stages). likely a used older version 18NS might sell for $12k-$17k......and can be fully upgraded to the new one when desired at a significant savings over the new price.
Although I will be very happy to congratulate you on maximizing synergy of the system, something I too often preach
While I agree that listening over the long term gives a better evaluation of a component, a favorable first impression can lead you to want to listen further and then disillusion might set in. However if the first impression is negative, more listening seldom changes things for the better IMO. I always audition a new wire or component with three or four familiar CDs or LPs and look for certain audio clues. Love at first sight, or sound, is enticing but seldom works out in the long run. In the case of the darTZeel, we shall see but I still have an open mind and am in no hurry to make final judgment.
Can you take both to some local friend and see how they match in his system? Will be good to see if differences hold in a non-Dart system, though for you Dart is relevant
As the man said, You gotta trust your ears. I'm not the most patient person in the world, and if the sound doesn't please me, I shut it down.
Now I feel I've heard enough of the darTZeel NHB-18NS to comment on its sound and the difference between it and the ARC Ref 5 SE. First, the Dart costs new more than twice the ARC so the ARC is an incredible bargain. Both are expensive, but the ARC, like a Porsche, is a bargain in its class. However if you're willing to ante up, or can find a very nice Greek who is ready to sell after 6 years ownership, go for the Dart since the ARC is not in its league. I doubt that any preamp is.
Why? First realism which is what this is about, to make any music reproduction sound real, and the Dart does this. I will lay aside the usual clichés like transparent, wide soundstage, holographic sound - it has all those things in spades - and concentrate on what stands out to my ear as different from the ARC.
The Dart digs down deeper into the music while the ARC, good as it is, skims the surface in comparison. The Dart reveals the meat of the music, mid-range down to bass, where it shines. The tone is darker than the ARC although the highs sparkle and shimmer in the piano, for instance. The mid-range of the piano has a snarl and the highs shimmer, all the complex harmonics revealed. This is a supreme test of any reproduction. Couple the piano with a kick drum and more is revealed as the thump of the drum is just there and reflects off the floor at the very bottom, with the help of my Triton Ones with built in subwoofers. The result on a piano trio, e.g. Jacques Lousier playing Satie, is stunning.
Also the music reproduced has weight like real music. The ARC is good at this, but the difference is obvious on first listening. Real music can be intrusive and impolite, and the Dart gets this. Digital artifacts disappear (with the help of my EMM Labs) so that there is no fear that a violin is going to sound like being bowed by a razor blade. On digital the Dart is close to analogue, even better on my system. The timbre of instruments is therefore correct as stands out in small-group jazz. Play Jimmy Rowles and Ray Brown and the duo is in the room. Must see if I can conjure up Diana Krall. On Beecham conducts Schubert symphonies, the midrange of the orchestra made no secret of its presence, not a bit of edge or shrillness, very coherent on an old recording. I am looking forward to hearing Oue conduct Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances, on RR, one of the great classical CDs.
Regarding the phono I am not all the way there but getting there. I heard tone color in Paul Simon's Graceland, never heard before, like the startling drum whack at the beginning. I probably will stay with the Dart phono section as I'm enjoying Coleman Hawkins as I write.
Hope this helps and thanks to all for the wise counsel. The three orange lights make me smile and this is before any possible upgrade. Right now I'm not messing with fate.
Viva darTZeel!
Congratulations again!
With the right partners (speakers, sources, etc) the 18NS + 108 is indeed as you put it. It's all about digging deeper into the recordings, and presenting them in a very natural way. Harsh, if the recording calls for it, or beautiful if that's what's called for.
With every post like this, I feel a little vindicated in that I see one of my favourite brands getting some recognition, as darTZeel definitely flies under the radar of the mainstream print/web talk. But that's minor, as all it matters is darTZeel has another satisfied owner among its ranks
Enjoy, and keep us posted!
cheers,
alex
PS: I don't recall now, but did you ever get a BNC cable to hook up the two?
With the right partners (speakers, sources, etc) the 18NS + 108 is indeed as you put it. It's all about digging deeper into the recordings, and presenting them in a very natural way. Harsh, if the recording calls for it, or beautiful if that's what's called for.
With every post like this, I feel a little vindicated in that I see one of my favourite brands getting some recognition, as darTZeel definitely flies under the radar of the mainstream print/web talk. But that's minor, as all it matters is darTZeel has another satisfied owner among its ranks
Enjoy, and keep us posted!
cheers,
alex
PS: I don't recall now, but did you ever get a BNC cable to hook up the two?
Congratulations again!
With the right partners (speakers, sources, etc) the 18NS + 108 is indeed as you put it. It's all about digging deeper into the recordings, and presenting them in a very natural way. Harsh, if the recording calls for it, or beautiful if that's what's called for.
With every post like this, I feel a little vindicated in that I see one of my favourite brands getting some recognition, as darTZeel definitely flies under the radar of the mainstream print/web talk. But that's minor, as all it matters is darTZeel has another satisfied owner among its ranks
Enjoy, and keep us posted!
cheers,
alex
PS: I don't recall now, but did you ever get a BNC cable to hook up the two?
Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I have a pair of BNC cables which I will try some day, but as said, I don't want to mess with fate at the present time. With regard to your statement about darTZeel being relatively unknown, that is true for North America. I was talking a while ago to a famous man in audio who asked what amp I was using. He had never heard of darTZeel although there are rave reviews out there.
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