Dartzeel NHB-18NS or ARC Ref 5 se?

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks for the tips which I am absorbing. On CD I can do better although on small groups, chamber music and jazz, the Dart is better than the ARC. However to this point I am underwhelmed by the phono which is strange. In the old setup, with the Ref 5 SE and Ayre Evolution phono section (set to 47k ohms), plus Lyra Skala, the phono was better than CD reproduction. Now it's the opposite since the Dart phono (836 ohms), while good, is not as full and weighty as before with weaker bass. I am going to be patient with this until the new batteries are installed, but I could use the Ayre again for phono, even though the Dart phono should be better. Not to my ears so far. The stand-alone Ayre Evolution is a very good phono stage.

for your information; there are actually 6 different levels of phono stages in the 'old' dart preamp. at various times I owned 4 of the 6 different levels and each step was better than the last. and the batteries make a particularly significant difference with the phono stages as is logical with reduced noise and increased ease and dynamics.

over it's 9 year run the old dart pre also had various upgrades to the volume control and charging system which did make (small) positive performance differences.

 

[microstrip]

for your information; there are actually 6 different levels of phono stages in the 'old' dart preamp. at various times I owned 4 of the 6 different levels and each step was better than the last. and the batteries make a particularly significant difference with the phono stages as is logical with reduced noise and increased ease and dynamics.

over it's 9 year run the old dart pre also had various upgrades to the volume control and charging system which did make (small) positive performance differences.

Just to add I have experience with two generations of NH18's separated by 6 years and there were significant sound differences between them. Batteries will last only a few months unless you have the battery charging upgrade.

 

[Cascais]

Just to add I have experience with two generations of NH18's separated by 6 years and there were significant sound differences between them. Batteries will last only a few months unless you have the battery charging upgrade.

The batteries in my 18NS have lasted >6 years. It has the battery through mode so am playing it on AC until replacements arrive in Lisboa. I wish I could install them myself but am not familiar with a soldering iron so hoping to arrange a house call. BTW, one of our fine dealers has a used KS1030 which might be good on the CDp?

 

[microstrip]

The batteries in my 18NS have lasted >6 years. It has the battery through mode so am playing it on AC until replacements arrive in Lisboa. I wish I could install them myself but am not familiar with a soldering iron so hoping to arrange a house call. BTW, one of our fine dealers has a used KS1030 which might be good on the CDp?

IMHO they have not lasted, they have been decorating the preamplifier for the last few years. IMHO no lead battery could last that time in the NH18NS, even after the upgrade. But people got used to the inferior sound of AC mode, as the change in sound quality is progressive as batteries degrade. Fortunately the new preamplifier uses a more modern type of battery, with much better performance, log life and without reliability problems. People have learned a lot from the cell phones and portable computers!

Unless you have a solid technical background, changing the batteries should be carried by the distributor or someone knowing the preamplfier - it is easy to damage it seriously by mistake, as fresh batteries come charged.

The Nagra PLP, although being a tubed preamplfier, also used chargeable batteries - a bank of Duracell's. I got it used and the batteries where at the end of life and died suddenly. I replaced with a cheap no brand equivalent, as I could not locate the Duracell for next day. The cheap batteries worked to specification, lasting for the expected time between charges, but when the proper Duracell bank arrived the preamplfier sounded much better!

I have owned the KS1130 - in my system it was leaner, less full bodied than the 1136.

 

[Cascais]

Luckily the new batteries are not expensive and should last until I have the unit upgraded. Batteries are always a problem but improving steadily. My old PC could hold a charge for maybe one and a half hours but my new one for many hours. You are absolutely right about the KS1130 being leaner than the KS1136 as I used the former between pre and power and amps and never liked it attached to a source. Kimber has discontinued the 1130. (BTW this morning I checked the impedance toggle switches on xlr and phono inputs and found them to be all over the place. I reset them according to the manual.)

 

[Mike Lavigne]

(BTW this morning I checked the impedance toggle switches on xlr and phono inputs and found them to be all over the place. I reset them according to the manual.)

.......and.....what was the sonic result from the reset?

 

[Cascais]

.......and.....what was the sonic result from the reset?

The sonic effects were either negligible or negative. On CD I couldn't detect a difference but on phono, a lean sound with unpleasant highs and weak bass. This very different from what I am used to where the phono sounds better than CD. After a week I am tired of micro-analyzing so have taken a break by reinstalling my Ref 5 SE and Ayre phono in the system, to be immediately rewarded by familiar excellence. Maybe I have to reconsider the whole project. Maybe I've morphed into a tube guy.

 

[Cascais]

Heading into the last stage of choosing between two fine preamps as I had sent my NHB-18NS to the dealer who has installed new batteries and tested it in the shop. Yesterday I heard it and was impressed enough to give it a second chance in my system with battery power. It will be delivered later so we will compare it again with the ARC, the definitive test.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Heading into the last stage of choosing between two fine preamps as I had sent my NHB-18NS to the dealer who has installed new batteries and tested it in the shop. Yesterday I heard it and was impressed enough to give it a second chance in my system with battery power. It will be delivered later so we will compare it again with the ARC, the definitive test.

thanks. I will be watching for results.

 

[dctom]

Heading into the last stage of choosing between two fine preamps as I had sent my NHB-18NS to the dealer who has installed new batteries and tested it in the shop. Yesterday I heard it and was impressed enough to give it a second chance in my system with battery power. It will be delivered later so we will compare it again with the ARC, the definitive test.

I swapped my BAT 52se and ARC ref2 phono for the NHB-18NS, the Dart was about 5 years old when I got it. It had the lightly stepping volume control and the phono stage was 3 or 4th version.

I was able to compare the 2 preamp/phonos for around 10 days. The BAT/ARC v Dart on phono - the Dart edged ahead ( I think the ARC phono helped the BAT here) on digital the Dart was much better. I concluded the Dart was much more transparent than the BAT and I had a Playback D MPS 5 which had a 50ohm output for the Dart. I think using all 50ohm inters is a great asset with Dart gear.

The batteries had been replaced by the dealer when I got it, I had it for around two and a half years, there was never any problem with the batteries. I always used it on battery power, but turned it of after use.

I really liked it and ordered the new version but whilst waiting (which got longer and longer) I had the opportunity to borrow the Ypsilon pre and phono which were a good step up (from the Dart 1) and were cheaper than the Dart 2 in the UK (the pound was strong against the euro at the time)

I particularly like having the phono built in as it makes every thing neater and saves on interconnects, also the Dart does not need to warm up like some gear - turn it on and it is ready to go.
Upgrading to the new version will give you a great pre and phono.

 

[Cascais]

dctom - Thanks for the very helpful reply which confirms the quality of the Dart phono section which is praised in reviews. Strangely the phono on my unit was disappointing, thin and light on the bass, not comparable to my reference Ayre Evolution, which I find very satisfying coupled with the ARC Ref 5 SE, SME 20, Skala combination. I will listen with fresh ears when the Dart comes back but at present it is possible that I will continue to use the Ayre even if I keep the Dart for CD. If so my ultimate aim would be to have the Dart upgraded to the new model.

 

[MadFloyd]

Subscribing... always curious about both darTZeel and AR preamps and phono stages.

 

[dctom]

The loading on the Dart can be adjusted but needs to be soldered. I ran it around 330ohms if I remember correctly.
That did produce a fuller sound.
What cartridge are you using?

 

[Cascais]

The loading on the Dart can be adjusted but needs to be soldered. I ran it around 330ohms if I remember correctly.
That did produce a fuller sound.
What cartridge are you using?

I'm using the Lyra Skala loaded by the dealer at 17k ohms in the Ayre. The Dart is loaded at the factory at 836 ohms. I found the Ayre sound much superior although can't say if this was due to the loading.

 

[dctom]

Maybe the Ayre is indeed a better phono stage than the Dart's internal one. It is your listening experience that should be the arbiter.

 

[Cascais]

Maybe the Ayre is indeed a better phono stage than the Dart's internal one. It is your listening experience that should be the arbiter.

That is exactly what my Dartzeel dealer suggested. An external phono stage might have an innate superiority to a built in model and Ayre products are very good. The ear will be the judge.

 

[dctom]

The Dartzeel NHB - 18NS is a great machine but is now prohibitively expensive in the UK. When the model 1 came out in 2007 it was 15K GBP an extra phono was about 1k GBP, so the phono was modest in high end terms but obviously preformed very well. It climbed up in price over the years to around £27k in 2015 mostly due to a falling pound, partly UK inflation (22% approx)

The new NHB - 18NS is 37000 GBP (2nd phono 6K) because the pound has fallen to 1.2CHF /1 GBP. If the exchange rate was the same as in 2007 the NHB - 18NS would be about 18k GBP inc vat (2.5 CHF/£1). A great buy, in high end terms, for an all in one solution to vinyl replay.

Why am I writing this - although the Dart is excellent there are a lot of possibly more cost effective solutions in the UK, if buying new, 2nd hand it is a better deal but I dont know how much the upgrade options are.

 

[Cascais]

The Dartzeel NHB - 18NS is a great machine but is now prohibitively expensive in the UK. When the model 1 came out in 2007 it was 15K GBP an extra phono was about 1k GBP, so the phono was modest in high end terms but obviously preformed very well. It climbed up in price over the years to around £27k in 2015 mostly due to a falling pound, partly UK inflation (22% approx)

The new NHB - 18NS is 37000 GBP (2nd phono 6K) because the pound has fallen to 1.2CHF /1 GBP. If the exchange rate was the same as in 2007 the NHB - 18NS would be about 18k GBP inc vat (2.5 CHF/£1). A great buy, in high end terms, for an all in one solution to vinyl replay.

Why am I writing this - although the Dart is excellent there are a lot of possibly more cost effective solutions in the UK, if buying new, 2nd hand it is a better deal but I dont know how much the upgrade options are.

The cost of a basic upgrade (without revised phono stage or power supply) for the NHB-18NS is 6500 CHF or 5265 pounds at current exchange rates.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The cost of a basic upgrade (without revised phono stage or power supply) for the NHB-18NS is 6500 CHF or 5265 pounds at current exchange rates.

if you are speaking about the upgrade from 'version 1' of the 18NS to 'version 2' (introduced last year) I had not heard you could do that without also getting the new battery system and power supply and the new phono. I had heard the 'total' upgrade to be approx. $11k USD. not sure exactly what it is now.

the delta from version 1 to version 2 in all areas is night and day. the new version plays at the very top level of phono stages and line stages, and continues to provide all the cost savings of interconnects, power cords, and rack space.

it's a no-brainer way to go.

 

[Cascais]

if you are speaking about the upgrade from 'version 1' of the 18NS to 'version 2' (introduced last year) I had not heard you could do that without also getting the new battery system and power supply and the new phono. I had heard the 'total' upgrade to be approx. $11k USD. not sure exactly what it is now.

the delta from version 1 to version 2 in all areas is night and day. the new version plays at the very top level of phono stages and line stages, and continues to provide all the cost savings of interconnects, power cords, and rack space.

it's a no-brainer way to go.

Check with darTZeel HQ in Geneva, as I heard from Hervé that there were three different price schedules depending on how far you wanted to go. The basic 6500 CHF included new battery system and front fascia, etc., and for extra cost you could get phono and power supply upgrades to the newest version. However the policy might have changed although I would be using my present phono section with the Dart preamp.