dCS Varese short review

[Lee]

and my opinions come from actually doing the work and the set ups over 50 years . I was addressing comments from those saying that set up was easy and you just follow the charts which may help but if can't place the speaker properly the charts wont help. There is no substitute for experience and knowing what to listen for and I didn't insult you so I don't understand yours.

Speaker placement done right is a lot of work and making adjustments. But I was not addressing that point in my reply.

 

[Lee]

If you read my reiviews or comments here, I like a lot of speakers from Magnepan to Magico M. I think the magazines try their best to find fresh products that are worthy once a respectable dealer network is in place.

All claim , claim ...... a never ending stream of magazine claims to atract buyers
The stuff thats really good is hardly ever mentioned in magazines.

 

[Lee]

Yes. i've seen some ofJims work. I take a look and say "Jim did this" and they said "how did you know" They use completely different methodology. Stirling uses what was called the Sumiko method where they were originally trying to optimize the bass of bookshelf speakers. This eventually led to "locking" in one speaker with the other disconnected. A single speaker is positioned so that it is optimized to the room. The whole emphasis is to remove the room (as much as possible) from the equation. It is precise to the millimeter. The six inches or so in the zone of neutrality might as well be a football field in terms of optimization. The other speaker speaker is then placed. There are some who have gone beyond this to include plumb lines to insure proper placement. The level is shot to insure the tweeters are at exactly the same height (floors aren't perfect). Always use spikes (even in hardwood) and tape the threads ( zero movement). There is a lot more to it. 3 professionals might take 2 full days to nail it. Stirling is just an example of this basic method. There are others out there. Its worth it. Its transformational. Just my opinion in answering your question.

Stirling and Jim both get to very tiny adjustments of precision, I think 1/32 of an inch on my speakers. Wilson’s WASP doesn’t stop at the six inches though, it goes on from there to very precise movements.

 

[Stereophonic]

We’re happy that you love your Wadax, and believe me, we’re just as happy with our dCS. Thanks.

I'm glad to read it. Enjoy !!!

 

[vindixon]

Thank you Stereophonic, but you still haven’t answered my question—what’s your agenda with continually bashing dCS on dCS threads?

 

[Al M.]

I think the tone on WBF is often disproportionate to the topic. That said IMHO optimizing speaker placement is more important than any buying decision between well made speaker brands like Magico Wilson or Rockport which tends to bring out the “tone” you refer to. As such I think it merits more discussion than what brand is “best”. Just my opinion based upon my personal experience which might be different than yours. I don’t make a living in audio but I wouldn’t buy speakers from someone who wasn’t an expert at placement unless I was going to hire Stirling to do it.

Or you learn to do it yourself. It will take more time, but it's fun (unless your speakers are extremely heavy and hard to move).

Also, I don't believe in a few days setup by an expert and then saying, it's done. You may tell the expert what your taste is and he will accommodate in the short time he's at your place, but your perception and idea of what compromise to strike according to your preference and taste (every speaker position is a compromise) may change. Also, there may be problems that will only appear after prolonged listening and on certain recordings, and further slight adjustments may be desirable then. It's *your* system after all, not the expert's, he has just been there to help.

Nothing against setup experts, but them having the last word without potential further adjustments by the end user over time? I am skeptical. Very skeptical.

So in the end, you may need to learn to do it yourself to some extent, no matter if an outside expert did the initial setup or not. And yes, don't forget to mark old and new positions on the floor and/or to accurately document them with photos.

 

[robob]

Everybody is correct.

During the mastering process of both digital and analogue, choices must be made. I call that "introducing distortion". By the way, mastering a digital recording is different from mastering an analogue recording, which says it all. The point is: analogue is a continuous signal, similar to what the human ear has been trained to listen to for millennia. Digital is not. Sony/Philips's choice of a "standard" 44.1 kHz digital sampling frequency proved to be a mistake, notwithstanding the theoretical background that justified the choice. I remember listening to the first cd players back in 1982(?) and running away in horror. At that time, I listened to vinyl on a Roksan Xerxes with SME V and Koestu Black. As a classical music buff, I used to go to the concert hall at least once a week.

The situation today is unchanged: analogue remains continuous, digital - no matter the sampling frequency - remains discontinuous. Meanwhile, a great deal has been learned about digital recording, on how to push digital artefacts produced by digitalization as far away from the audible range as possible etc... IMHO, these advances fully justify the complaints of some/many? audiophiles about digital recordings' insurmountable shortcomings. Perhaps, a time will come when these advances close the gap with analogue reproduction. But imho, it has not arrived yet. I found the best proof in excellent digital recordings that sound superior when they are cut to vinyl - which seems to minimize/ filter out? the digital artefacts generated in the D/A conversion. Here, I disagree with many vinylstas who seek the goodness of old Decca recordings. IMHO, today, vinyl from digital sources can be a joy, if done properly (I get frustrated with the hit and miss DG LPs of late: feed the fad, forget about sound quality; eg Joe Hisaishi's uplifting music massacred on LP).

An aside: a few years ago, a small German outfit - Stockfish - made a curious experiment. It cut digital masters through a D/A converter to an analogue direct metal master on a Neumann VMS-82 cutting lathe; it then read the copper master with an EMT 997 tonearm/TSD-15 cartridge and fed the analogue signal to a Meitner A/D converter. The obtained DSD signal at 2.8224 Mhz was used to produce SACDs. These SACDs (two in total) are amongst the best sounding SACDs in my collection.

Thank you. I have been trying to get folks to waken to this discontinuity for decades. As you say despite the frequency response and noise capability of 16/44.1 it does a mediocre of capturing the continuity of a sound wave. As Fremer says, digital has gotten better. Assuming a good recording, 24/192 via my Rossini Apex is very good, although I do prefer my analog rig. I also prefer AAA vinyl. The Atlantic and Pablo series that Analog Productions are doing are quite consistently good.

Y'all take care,
Robert

 

[microstrip]

Or you learn to do it yourself. It will take more time, but it's fun (unless your speakers are extremely heavy and hard to move).

Also, I don't believe in a few days setup by an expert and then saying, it's done. You may tell the expert what your taste is and he will accommodate in the short time he's at your place, but your perception and idea of what compromise to strike according to your preference and taste (every speaker position is a compromise) may change. Also, there may be problems that will only appear after prolonged listening and on certain recordings, and further slight adjustments may be desirable then. It's *your* system after all, not the expert's, he has just been there to help.

Nothing against setup experts, but them having the last word without potential further adjustments by the end user over time? I am skeptical. Very skeptical.

So in the end, you may need to learn to do it yourself to some extent, no matter if an outside expert did the initial setup or not. And yes, don't forget to mark old and new positions on the floor and/or to accurately document them with photos.

All very valid arguments. A "serious" audiophile should choose his expert like he chooses equipment - listening to several systems set up by each of them and finding which of them is closer to his listening preference.

As far as I see the referred experts are "system optimizers" - they do more than simply positioning speakers and they teach the system's owners, some times even advising on changes and acquisition. As far as I could see they "document" their set ups - the client gets information on the carried optimization.

If at some point I manage to have a simple and stable system I will probably try to get the services of one of these gentlemen.

 

[Amir]

I think we need experts (Stirling Trayle, David @ddk , Romy, Jim Smith, Kevin).

My friend in CA called Stirling Trayle and the result was very very good.

I think every audiophile should ask Stirling Trayle for speaker setup

 

[Mark212121]

I went to the UK dealer, Hi-Fi Lounge (Nr Biggleswade, Bedfordshire) on Wednesday. The owner, Paul was really excellent. He showed my brother and me round the whole place, which is a really great environment. I went to listen to a 3 box Vivaldi with a view to upgrading from my Rossini Apex. Unfortunately, we didn't feel the improvements were enough to purchase the Vivaldi. I think this came as a bit of a surprise to Paul, but my brother and I heard the same things.

On to the topic of this thread Paul has a "reference" system, which includes the dCS Varese. He let my brother and I use the room to listen some music of our choice. He left us alone, and we just played some of our favourite tracks for about 45 minutes. The system was wonderful, and we both really appreciated Paul's hospitality. I was very pleased to be able to listen to the Varese, even though (or even especially though) it is out of my reach. I don't know how it compares to other "top end" DACs and streamers. but I can imagine that it would be purely a matter of personal taste.

The Hi-Lounge is definitely worth a visit. We both had a great time there.

 

[Lee]

I think we need experts (Stirling Trayle, David @ddk , Romy, Jim Smith, Kevin).

My friend in CA called Stirling Trayle and the result was very very good.

I think every audiophile should ask Stirling Trayle for speaker setup

Stirling recently completed a setup of my friend Jim’s system. The system was greatly improved by Stirling’s work over four days.

 

[Lee]

Or you learn to do it yourself. It will take more time, but it's fun (unless your speakers are extremely heavy and hard to move).

Also, I don't believe in a few days setup by an expert and then saying, it's done. You may tell the expert what your taste is and he will accommodate in the short time he's at your place, but your perception and idea of what compromise to strike according to your preference and taste (every speaker position is a compromise) may change. Also, there may be problems that will only appear after prolonged listening and on certain recordings, and further slight adjustments may be desirable then. It's *your* system after all, not the expert's, he has just been there to help.

Nothing against setup experts, but them having the last word without potential further adjustments by the end user over time? I am skeptical. Very skeptical.

So in the end, you may need to learn to do it yourself to some extent, no matter if an outside expert did the initial setup or not. And yes, don't forget to mark old and new positions on the floor and/or to accurately document them with photos.

I’m not sure that that the experts would ever discourage further adjustments.

I do think there is great value in having lots of experience in this area and that’s not something an audiophile can easily get to on their own.

At the very least, experts get us closer to optimized system faster.

 

[Amir]

Stirling recently completed a setup of my friend Jim’s system. The system was greatly improved by Stirling’s work over four days.

I invited Stirling to Iran and I hope I met him in my showroom.

 

[microstrip]

I invited Stirling to Iran and I hope I met him in my showroom.

As far as I know he is a paid consultant and system optimizer, he does not come on "invitation" ...

 

[JiminGa]

Stirling and Jim both get to very tiny adjustments of precision, I think 1/32 of an inch on my speakers. Wilson’s WASP doesn’t stop at the six inches though, it goes on from there to very precise movements.

I understand this

Stirling and Jim both get to very tiny adjustments of precision, I think 1/32 of an inch on my speakers. Wilson’s WASP doesn’t stop at the six inches though, it goes on from there to very precise movements.

as examples I’ve heard 2 XVX set ups by Peter which were then setup in the method I describe and each were different by about 4 inches. In both cases I personally prefer the “Sumiko” methodology. I’m only speaking for myself and not proclaiming superiority of it for everyone in all cases. It’s just another example of how important placement is in getting the sound you personally prefer. People may love how their system sounds but they wouldn’t know what they are leaving on the table without someone showing them in their room on their system

 

[robob]

Thanks for the heads up @Jack Pot. For the benefit of others TRPTK recordings are available on Qobuz (in 24/176.4 PCM). For instance the aforementioned Winterreise).

My goodness! Queued up Winterreise on my system with the smaller Genelecs/Sub and an Avid MTRX Studio for the DAC and heard perhaps the most natural vocal I've ever heard. And this report is coming from a committed Analog guy

 

[Audiocrack]

My goodness! Queued up Winterreise on my system with the smaller Genelecs/Sub and an Avid MTRX Studio for the DAC and heard perhaps the most natural vocal I've ever heard. And this report is coming from a committed Analog guy

Please keep in mind that the TRPTK files sound in their native recording rates (many of them in 32 bit dxd) -even - more glorious than in the 24/176.4 version you apparently listened to.

 

[robob]

not true.

Mr. Fremer get's down and dirty in many of his turntable reviews, lot's of time with both sitting there side to side, many times with his digital captures. he is one guy who weighs in freely without fear and calls it like he hears it. does not mean you like what he does or agree with him. but he steps on toes. unfiltered. yet he also respects each product and is not demeaning to any. if he has a bias he talks about it and the other side of it too.

Not sure Fremer is as forthcoming as he once was. The current TAS doesn't seem to be as trustworthy as it once was. I started reading it when there was no advertising. Some have said that now you don't get reviewed if you don't advertise. Also, Fremer has become too comfortable with DDA or DAA.

Robert

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Not sure Fremer is as forthcoming as he once was. The current TAS doesn't seem to be as trustworthy as it once was. I started reading it when there was no advertising. Some have said that now you don't get reviewed if you don't advertise. Also, Fremer has become too comfortable with DDA or DAA.

Robert

i think we need more time to judge whether Fremer evolves away from being free to be critical or not on Absolute Sound. obviously his footprint there is lower; he is not doing a monthly column any more so has less content and opportunity. but i personally doubt he will change his spots and don't think he gives a rip what others might think. we will just have to see how it goes.

 

[Elliot G.]

I understand this

as examples I’ve heard 2 XVX set ups by Peter which were then setup in the method I describe and each were different by about 4 inches. In both cases I personally prefer the “Sumiko” methodology. I’m only speaking for myself and not proclaiming superiority of it for everyone in all cases. It’s just another example of how important placement is in getting the sound you personally prefer. People may love how their system sounds but they wouldn’t know what they are leaving on the table without someone showing them in their room on their system

Jim, I am total agreement with you. I don't think its the method I still believe its the person executing the set up.
I do believe however that it is a great leaning experience for the owners and at worse is a great place to start and to understand how things work and change.