dCS Varese short review

[JiminGa]

Wrong. Not meant as an insult. Jealous that you have the opportunity to hear a wide range of systems. I can't have one anymore. Had a house big enough but it burnt down last July. Live in a much smaller place now. No room for a dedicated two channel system for the first time in some 45 years. Personally would love to have that opportunity. I really miss having a good audio system. Not everyone is out to get you. Enjoy your anger or whatever that reaction is. Bye.

Sorry for my snarky reply. I truly apologize. Despite having survived many personal tragedies myself (like many here) I really am lucky. Forgive me and please abide.

 

[caesar]

Exactly. The approach does matter but it's the execution of it which determines the outcome. VERY few dealers have the inclination to have a couple of their guys tied up for a couple of days to really nail the dial. What's in it for them? The client won't notice a difference if they don't know the alternative. Even if the dealer is inclined to do so how many of them have the people with the skills to do so? It isn't going to be about just measurements. Its going to involve real listening skill and a ton of experience. What would we be down to now? Maybe a half dozen dealers? That's why I'm comfortable buying certain things (cables etc) on a best price basis but never speakers or turntables. The dealer adds too much value. The alternative would be to hire an expert to position them for you. I've been at this a long time and I can tell you I am not qualified to do this myself. Even some of the "expert" set up guys are not really qualified IMHO. I know this is controversial but I would much rather have an average speaker expertly set up than the best speaker in the world in an average set up. Speaking only for myself that is why I roll my eyes when I hear all the M7, XVX talk and know that without a shadow of a doubt they are wasting money. Not because they aren't great speakers but because the owners will hear maybe 75% of what they are capable of and never even know it. We spend whole threads on fuses and switches and exotic cables. These will make small subtle (relatively) differences. Placement is transformative. The system as a whole, synergistic, integrated unit is transformative. The reason the tweets dominate discussion is because they are easy. System synergy and set up is hard to do and harder to find. Just my opinion. Not fighting

This is a very though provoking post. I would hope that dealers are professionals who will do proper setup regardless. However, I am afraid you are correct in many cases.

 

[Lee]

The basis is going and listening at dealers and private systems and comparing them to excellent setups.

I believe there is some truth to this.

 

[Lee]

I respectfully disagree. The current dcs Vivaldi stack takes something like 15-17 cables. It was / is considered the BEST by dcs people and fans; they ignore the presence of wadax in the market.

Those people did not use cheap cables for their IMAGINED BEST! Cable manufacturers like Transparent and respective dealers benefited greatly!

So why not replicate the cash cow?

The Varese comes with 4 Actus cables and you can add 5 power cords of your choosing. So maybe not bad sales for the cable firms but not as much as you imagine.

 

[Lee]

Exactly. The approach does matter but it's the execution of it which determines the outcome. VERY few dealers have the inclination to have a couple of their guys tied up for a couple of days to really nail the dial. What's in it for them? The client won't notice a difference if they don't know the alternative. Even if the dealer is inclined to do so how many of them have the people with the skills to do so? It isn't going to be about just measurements. Its going to involve real listening skill and a ton of experience. What would we be down to now? Maybe a half dozen dealers? That's why I'm comfortable buying certain things (cables etc) on a best price basis but never speakers or turntables. The dealer adds too much value. The alternative would be to hire an expert to position them for you. I've been at this a long time and I can tell you I am not qualified to do this myself. Even some of the "expert" set up guys are not really qualified IMHO. I know this is controversial but I would much rather have an average speaker expertly set up than the best speaker in the world in an average set up. Speaking only for myself that is why I roll my eyes when I hear all the M7, XVX talk and know that without a shadow of a doubt they are wasting money. Not because they aren't great speakers but because the owners will hear maybe 75% of what they are capable of and never even know it. We spend whole threads on fuses and switches and exotic cables. These will make small subtle (relatively) differences. Placement is transformative. The system as a whole, synergistic, integrated unit is transformative. The reason the tweets dominate discussion is because they are easy. System synergy and set up is hard to do and harder to find. Just my opinion. Not fighting

Great post.

There are some dealer exceptions. Scott at Evolution spends a great deal of time dialing them in but admittedly not multiple days like Jim or Stirling would do. Jim got into setup in part from doing setups for customers of his Birmingham dealership.

While there are some costs in terms of time and equipment, we shouldn’t underestimate the value of the customer relationship to a dealer. If a dealer spends time dialing in Sabrinas, then that customer might come back later and want Alexias. Trust builds from great service and that may also lead to ancillary purchases like accessories and cables.

 

[thedudeabides]

Sorry for my snarky reply. I truly apologize. Despite having survived many personal tragedies myself (like many here) I really am lucky. Forgive me and please abide.

Thank you for understanding. Tragedies are not fun but like you and others, I am also very lucky. And I will continually endeavor to abide. Best.

 

[Charles S]

Overall, I like what Microstrip has to say about Wilson speaker placement. I certainly wouldn't listen to the folks saying you are wasting your money on an M7 or XVX. They begin with the false assumption that Wilson speakers are difficult to place in the room.

Now my room is a full 40 feet long and is built like a tank, extremely sturdy without going into it. For placement of my XVX I wanted my tweeters 108 inches apart. My room is exactly 15.5' wide sidewall to side wall. If you look at the tops of my XVX, you will see this places them about 2-3 inches from the ceiling. For my room one might think the height was the limiting factor. Not so. It is the width and the XVX is quite narrow for a speaker its size. My room will not tolerate a wide speaker. The width of an XVX is only 16.5", which is amazing for a speaker of its size and weight. This works out to absolutely perfect placement regarding width.

Next is the sitting distance from the speaker. I want the tweeters aimed exactly at my ears for on axis listening. Not at my face but my ears. If you look at my pics you will see this satisfies the Wilson criteria of just being able to see the inside walls of the woofer bins. My sitting distance is roughly 11' from the base just as Wilson recommends, a nice isosceles triangle as suggested by Wilson.

The dimensions of this triangle have remained constant with my Alexx and my Maxx3, because it was not feasible to situate them any closer to the side walls, even though with their lesser height, a wider tweeter distance would have been possible. One of the keys to my requirements of buying my XVX was that I could obtain a tweeter distance of 108" or nine feet, and I did, so I bought the speaker. Wilson had to make custom acoustic diodes for my XVX, which gave me an additional inch of height to obtain this distance easily.

The placement in the room and port (front or back) wasn't difficult. After satisfying the zone of neutrality, I wanted the most possible bass. I had already observed from my Alexx that I preferred the rear port and so it was used for my XVX. The black dot just above the carpet was the estimated placement of the XVX at time of installation. That's where we began, and you can see where we ended up. My placement is where I have the very best bass room frequency response. It just happens to provide an excellent treble and midrange also. I have the rear tweeter set to minus 3 dB.

One of the tremendous strengths of Wilson speakers is they are designed for on axis listening. The tweeters must be aimed at the ears to achieve the best results. I never listen with the rear door closed and it is a full 40 feet away. I have an extremely smooth bass response, exactly what I want, and I have zero slap echo. My room is on the dead side. It is not a live room. It will absorb a lot of sound. I do not like live rooms. For many other speakers, on axis listening doesn't work very well, IMO.

I have heard many speakers. After you listen to a speaker for a while, all its problems become apparent, whether it is because of placement or the speaker itself and you want more. I experienced this with my Maxx3 and Alexx to a much lesser degree, both of which were extremely fine speakers. I was satisfied with my Alexx but when I saw the XVX, I knew I had to own it. I can't explain why. I don't experience this phenomenon with my current system or XVX. It's simply the best sound I have heard. It 100% satisfies my ears. I can play the system as loud as I like. 35 watts is usually plenty, but I have 350 watts if I want it and sometimes, I do.

As I have said, it all begins with power and wires. MY new incoming Rose 130RS retails for 5,200.00 dollars. The AQ Dragon 2-meter solid silver power cord alone retails for 7,900.00 dollars and it will be plugged into its own transformer isolated outlet of my Niagara 7000 that uses a 1-meter Dragon HC into its dedicated 20-amp line no.10 wire directly into the fuse box. As you know the power cord coming from the wall into the power conditioner is the most important one and should be short, no more than 1-meter if possible.

I hope that folks reading this thread will give Wilson speakers a try. I do not believe they are difficult to place. There is no such thing as a "perfect" speaker placement. I believe that I have achieved an excellent placement, not perfect. It goes without saying that the individual modules must be correctly aligned for any Wilson speaker. It's not difficult and I thoroughly checked my dealer's chronometer alignments. My chronometer is aligned to my satisfaction.

C

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Gear on Order: Hi Fi Rose 130RS Network Transport; Samsung internal SSD; Audioquest Wel Signature digital balanced 1-meter IC; Audioquest Diamond 1.5 meter USB cable; Audioquest Dragon 2-meter source power cord; HDMI cable 24’ for music videos

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes

 

[Charles S]

This provides for a good understanding of my room placement. Notice the black dot on my hardwood (4th pic). It was the estimated placement for the inside front acoustic diode and where we began for the left XVX.

 

[microstrip]

You can ask these questions from Styrling Trayle.

Audio Systems Optimized | Stereo Set Up Service | California Petaluma United States

Audio Systems Optimized provides home audio system set-up and optimization services, specializing in high-end turntable and loudspeaker setup.

www.audiosystemsoptimized.com

If, as you say, you are paying you can tell us about the cost ...

 

[microstrip]

I respectfully disagree. The current dcs Vivaldi stack takes something like 15-17 cables. It was / is considered the BEST by dcs people and fans; they ignore the presence of wadax in the market.

The dCS Vivaldi complete stack takes 14 cables - 5 clock cables, 5 AES/EBU and 4 power cables. Although the inexpensive cables that come with the unit are of poor quality - supplied just for testing - I used it with great sound using DIY BNC and AES/EBU cables made van dan Hul bulk cable for some months. Probably in part due to the strong DIY bias ( it was a long work preparing and soldering all of them) I found a great improvement over stock cables. And as far as I know from other dCS Vivaldi users they do not ignore the Wadax - they have listened to it but seem to prefer it to Wadax. Surely a few changed in the world, as can be expected considering the very strong presence of dCS in the market.

Those people did not use cheap cables for their IMAGINED BEST! Cable manufacturers like Transparent and respective dealers benefited greatly!

You guessed, later I changed to Transparent - I preferred their sound. Probably sonically influenced by the presence of the existing Transparent signal and speaker cables existing in my system.

So why not replicate the cash cow?

Yes, the high end industry people are on business to make money. They have the knowledge and the tools to make cables sounding different that audiophiles prefer. We have no problem if you prefer the sound of cheap chinese fake cables with similar aspect sold on eBay for a few tens of usd . We had very interesting and participated threads in WBF where we debated expensive cables and the reasons of their existence. Why does your participation in dCS and Wilson threads always focus in bovine superficial aspects not related to the main subject?

 

[caesar]

The dCS Vivaldi complete stack takes 14 cables - 5 clock cables, 5 AES/EBU and 4 power cables. Although the inexpensive cables that come with the unit are of poor quality - supplied just for testing - I used it with great sound using DIY BNC and AES/EBU cables made van dan Hul bulk cable for some months. Probably in part due to the strong DIY bias ( it was a long work preparing and soldering all of them) I found a great improvement over stock cables. And as far as I know from other dCS Vivaldi users they do not ignore the Wadax - they have listened to it but seem to prefer it to Wadax. Surely a few changed in the world, as can be expected considering the very strong presence of dCS in the market.



You guessed, later I changed to Transparent - I preferred their sound. Probably sonically influenced by the presence of the existing Transparent signal and speaker cables existing in my system.



Yes, the high end industry people are on business to make money. They have the knowledge and the tools to make cables sounding different that audiophiles prefer. We have no problem if you prefer the sound of cheap chinese fake cables with similar aspect sold on eBay for a few tens of usd . We had very interesting and participated threads in WBF where we debated expensive cables and the reasons of their existence. Why does your participation in dCS and Wilson threads always focus in bovine superficial aspects not related to the main subject?

FYI- when I heard the vivalid apex to varese comparison, the rep called the vivaldi the BEST DAC in the world. so dcs pretends wadax doesn't exist.

Also, we discuss all aspects of audio. As you say, cables can make things better.

Why are you so cranky?

 

[JiminGa]

Overall, I like what Microstrip has to say about Wilson speaker placement. I certainly wouldn't listen to the folks saying you are wasting your money on an M7 or XVX. They begin with the false assumption that Wilson speakers are difficult to place in the room.

Now my room is a full 40 feet long and is built like a tank, extremely sturdy without going into it. For placement of my XVX I wanted my tweeters 108 inches apart. My room is exactly 15.5' wide sidewall to side wall. If you look at the tops of my XVX, you will see this places them about 2-3 inches from the ceiling. For my room one might think the height was the limiting factor. Not so. It is the width and the XVX is quite narrow for a speaker its size. My room will not tolerate a wide speaker. The width of an XVX is only 16.5", which is amazing for a speaker of its size and weight. This works out to absolutely perfect placement regarding width.

Next is the sitting distance from the speaker. I want the tweeters aimed exactly at my ears for on axis listening. Not at my face but my ears. If you look at my pics you will see this satisfies the Wilson criteria of just being able to see the inside walls of the woofer bins. My sitting distance is roughly 11' from the base just as Wilson recommends, a nice isosceles triangle as suggested by Wilson.

The dimensions of this triangle have remained constant with my Alexx and my Maxx3, because it was not feasible to situate them any closer to the side walls, even though with their lesser height, a wider tweeter distance would have been possible. One of the keys to my requirements of buying my XVX was that I could obtain a tweeter distance of 108" or nine feet, and I did, so I bought the speaker. Wilson had to make custom acoustic diodes for my XVX, which gave me an additional inch of height to obtain this distance easily.

The placement in the room and port (front or back) wasn't difficult. After satisfying the zone of neutrality, I wanted the most possible bass. I had already observed from my Alexx that I preferred the rear port and so it was used for my XVX. The black dot just above the carpet was the estimated placement of the XVX at time of installation. That's where we began, and you can see where we ended up. My placement is where I have the very best bass room frequency response. It just happens to provide an excellent treble and midrange also. I have the rear tweeter set to minus 3 dB.

One of the tremendous strengths of Wilson speakers is they are designed for on axis listening. The tweeters must be aimed at the ears to achieve the best results. I never listen with the rear door closed and it is a full 40 feet away. I have an extremely smooth bass response, exactly what I want, and I have zero slap echo. My room is on the dead side. It is not a live room. It will absorb a lot of sound. I do not like live rooms. For many other speakers, on axis listening doesn't work very well, IMO.

I have heard many speakers. After you listen to a speaker for a while, all its problems become apparent, whether it is because of placement or the speaker itself and you want more. I experienced this with my Maxx3 and Alexx to a much lesser degree, both of which were extremely fine speakers. I was satisfied with my Alexx but when I saw the XVX, I knew I had to own it. I can't explain why. I don't experience this phenomenon with my current system or XVX. It's simply the best sound I have heard. It 100% satisfies my ears. I can play the system as loud as I like. 35 watts is usually plenty, but I have 350 watts if I want it and sometimes, I do.

As I have said, it all begins with power and wires. MY new incoming Rose 130RS retails for 5,200.00 dollars. The AQ Dragon 2-meter solid silver power cord alone retails for 7,900.00 dollars and it will be plugged into its own transformer isolated outlet of my Niagara 7000 that uses a 1-meter Dragon HC into its dedicated 20-amp line no.10 wire directly into the fuse box. As you know the power cord coming from the wall into the power conditioner is the most important one and should be short, no more than 1-meter if possible.

I hope that folks reading this thread will give Wilson speakers a try. I do not believe they are difficult to place. There is no such thing as a "perfect" speaker placement. I believe that I have achieved an excellent placement, not perfect. It goes without saying that the individual modules must be correctly aligned for any Wilson speaker. It's not difficult and I thoroughly checked my dealer's chronometer alignments. My chronometer is aligned to my satisfaction.

C

Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest

Gear on Order: Hi Fi Rose 130RS Network Transport; Samsung internal SSD; Audioquest Wel Signature digital balanced 1-meter IC; Audioquest Diamond 1.5 meter USB cable; Audioquest Dragon 2-meter source power cord; HDMI cable 24’ for music videos

Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes

Nothing I said was specific to Wilson or Magico speakers being difficult to place. My comments refer to all full range speakers equally and I stand by them. I said that the vast majority of owners are not experiencing anywhere near what the speakers are capable of. I did give two examples involving XVX because it was illustrious of my points. Peter, even as good as he is, did not get everything out of the XVX that it was capable of. I did not say the owners weren't happy with the systems. I'm sure they are. What I am hoping is that at least one person becomes curious enough to explore this journey. There is nothing in all your lists that vs. a reasonable alternative would yield the same sonic result. Gear is just gear. The room and its interaction with it is way more important than Wilson vs. Magico or Rockport, Sonus Faber etc. Unless you have witnessed the change then you are doing everyone at WBF a disservice by telling them not to listen. Wilson and every other full range speaker is ENORMOUSLY difficult to set up. I've watched moving your speakers a few inches become a completely different speaker. Twice. This is after having Wilsons tops set up guy set them both up. Please don't personalize this. I'm not picking on Wilson. I've seen the same with my Rockport's.

 

[microstrip]

Nothing I said was specific to Wilson or Magico speakers being difficult to place. My comments refer to all full range speakers equally and I stand by them. I said that the vast majority of owners are not experiencing anywhere near what the speakers are capable of. I did give two examples involving XVX because it was illustrious of my points. Peter, even as good as he is, did not get everything out of the XVX that it was capable of. I did not say the owners weren't happy with the systems. I'm sure they are. What I am hoping is that at least one person becomes curious enough to explore this journey. There is nothing in all your lists that vs. a reasonable alternative would yield the same sonic result. Gear is just gear. The room and its interaction with it is way more important than Wilson vs. Magico or Rockport, Sonus Faber etc. Unless you have witnessed the change then you are doing everyone at WBF a disservice by telling them not to listen. Wilson and every other full range speaker is ENORMOUSLY difficult to set up. I've watched moving your speakers a few inches become a completely different speaker. Twice. This is after having Wilsons tops set up guy set them both up. Please don't personalize this. I'm not picking on Wilson. I've seen the same with my Rockport's.

I said it before - the high-end speaker performance is not intrinsically predictable and reliable. It depends too much on owner listening experience and wish to learn and how he wants to enjoy the system. Too many types of preference, very different rooms. Most probably many audiophiles will not reach the very top optimum performance in their systems, particularly when it is being accessed by people with well defined preferences. But they will enjoy them as they are, playing music and living the hobby.

We can't persuade all audiophiles to read the Jim Smith book and use REW in their systems. IMO they are not interested in it.

Sorry, but such crusade driven by misleading ambiguous key sentences like "ENORMOUSLY difficult" , "less than 5% were properly set up" will only lead people out of this hobby. Particularly because our own anecdotal experience is just a data point. I understand your points, but would rather prefer reading in detail how your Rockports were set up.

BTW, I have found that audiophiles are intrinsically hyperbolic, both in referring positive and negative aspects ...

 

[Amir]

If, as you say, you are paying you can tell us about the cost ...

I think it is better to ask from him

+1 (707) 494-5482

 

[Amir]

Gear is just gear. The room and its interaction with it is way more important than Wilson vs. Magico or Rockport, Sonus Faber etc. Unless you have witnessed the change then you are doing everyone at WBF a disservice by telling them not to listen. Wilson and every other full range speaker is ENORMOUSLY difficult to set up. I've watched moving your speakers a few inches become a completely different speaker.

You are right, Most audiophiles change their gear to improve the sound but they never listened to properly positioned speakers in their room.

I do not recommend changing gear before considering three parameters:
- speaker placement by Stirling Trayle
- AC Power quality
- Amplifier speaker matching

 

[wil]

BTW, I have found that audiophiles are intrinsically hyperbolic, both in referring positive and negative aspects ...

LOL! A most true statement!

 

[andromedaaudio]

I do not recommend changing gear before considering three parameters:

Why not its good for business .
Its what the industry thrives on / keeps it going

 

[Amir]

Why not its good for business .
Its what the industry thrives on / keeps it going

I think if audiophiles find the right way to improve the sound then they will enjoy more and even will pay more for this hobby.
I do not blame audiophiles because I believe the main problem is the audio industry do not care about system optimization. If audio companies ask Stirling Trayle to optimize their system in munich show and care more about AC quality, ground loops, matching , … to get better sound then audiophiles will pay more for this hobby.

Most expensive rooms in munich show 2024 were under average.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think if audiophiles find the right way to improve the sound

They have the solution already / quick fix
Its changing cables

 

[Al M.]

I think if audiophiles find the right way to improve the sound then they will enjoy more and even will pay more for this hobby.
I do not blame audiophiles because I believe the main problem is the audio industry do not care about system optimization. If audio companies ask Stirling Trayle to optimize their system in munich show and care more about AC quality, ground loops, matching , … to get better sound then audiophiles will pay more for this hobby.

Most expensive rooms in munich show 2024 were under average.

As for the show: You cannot do much about bad room acoustics in the venue and bad power of limited availability to properly drive a system (all those mega systems compete for the same power source). Even Stirling Trayle would not be able to work magic at the show.