Thank you for your thoughtful post. i understand your points. Truly. I hope you understand that I am not on any kind of crusade. I was responding to a post. Everyone has a different reason for posting here. My post, I believe, was truthful. I saw Jason Isbel at the Fox last night and felt things that I could not feel on any system anywhere. I was aware that no matter how good the the Fox's acoustics were you could hear a ton of faults with the Mic and the PA. Did it bother me? No. For me I listen to music every day for a kind of spiritual connection I have with it. I'm not about gear. Despite the forums name I don't believe there is any "best". It is all about preferences and journeys. As I said my intent is to encourage even one person to pursue a placement and room interaction journey because this will bring them closer to the music and save them from continuously chasing gear and spending a ton of money in the process. More joy less money. I know this runs counter to the general theme here. More money more joy. This should actually encourage more people to join the high end because ultimately you will get more enjoyment for less money. It's off putting to most people to see the stupid money we spend. This is democratizing. It will not necessarily encourage people to spend more money on gear. You don't have to be a millionaire. No, you can't list it in your gear and there is no pride of ownership but you could make a modest system sound world class in most aspects other than size and scale. I was PM'd that this topic would create some consternation. Better to talk about DCS vs. Wadax. You did give the post of mine you quoted a thumbs up so I am probably not fully understanding your point. Nothing is ambiguous and I did detail some of the set up of my Rockport's right down to the plumb bob and taping the threads. Starts with the Sumiko method and takes off from there. Some of what they do is proprietary and they would not like me sharing it but if you understand Stirlings approach you would understand theirs. I don't know everything. I am a peon reaching out to other peons with advice on how to pursue their goals without having to buy ever more expensive gear to do it. It's ok if you disagree. It's ok if everyone disagrees. I'm not pushing anything on anyone. The goal here is to obtain some joy in this ever more challenging world we are living in. Peacefully. Everyone deserves an opportunity to obtain it. We are now way off topic and I will refrain from any more setup discussion on a DCS thread. Sorry for the diversion.
dCS Varese short review
- Thread starter craigr
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I think Stirling Trayle can help alot. I remember in munich show 2024 the Raidho room the sound of small Raidho was very good. Small Raidho speaker position was very very good.
Jimin GA said: "Speaking only for myself that is why I roll my eyes when I hear all the M7, XVX talk and know that without a shadow of a doubt they are wasting money. Not because they aren't great speakers but because the owners will hear maybe 75% of what they are capable of and never even know it."
JiminGa, please understand that I simply disagree with your comment, and I said so. My investment in my XVX has been the best investment and given me more fun and pleasure than any investment I have made in my life. I tremendously respect everybody's opinions and suspect that I am the least knowledgeable but perhaps the happiest and most satisfied of all the folks on WBF with their systems with some exceptions like Mike Laverne.
After reading about the incredible number of cords and wires (28) needed to support a Varese or Vivaldi (20), this just reinforces my belief that these DAC's are overly complex and over engineered. Every box has greatly duplicated circuits, like individual power supplies and multiple power supplies inside one box, etc. The possibility of a glitch or failure will be worrisome and sending these boxes up north to a service center or overseas is real, if unlikely.
I believe in simplicity. A DAC like the Varese would demand from me if I owned one wires that would cost as much as the unit itself. The AQ Dragon source power cords alone would be about 50K retail. I hate to say this because I am rooting for the Varese and dCS. I am certain the engineers and sales folks are top notch, but it is completely impractical even if I had the money.
I have achieved a wonderful analog sound with incredible clarity and beauty with topline AQ solid silver connections, cords, and tubes with Niagara 5000 and 7000 power conditioners. These DAC's are only as good as their wires so be prepared to spend another 250K for the Varese.
Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest
Gear on Order: Hi Fi Rose 130RS Network Transport; Samsung internal SSD; Audioquest Wel Signature digital balanced 1-meter IC; Audioquest Diamond 1.5 meter USB cable; Audioquest Dragon 2-meter source power cord; HDMI cable 24’ for music videos
Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes
JiminGa, please understand that I simply disagree with your comment, and I said so. My investment in my XVX has been the best investment and given me more fun and pleasure than any investment I have made in my life. I tremendously respect everybody's opinions and suspect that I am the least knowledgeable but perhaps the happiest and most satisfied of all the folks on WBF with their systems with some exceptions like Mike Laverne.
After reading about the incredible number of cords and wires (28) needed to support a Varese or Vivaldi (20), this just reinforces my belief that these DAC's are overly complex and over engineered. Every box has greatly duplicated circuits, like individual power supplies and multiple power supplies inside one box, etc. The possibility of a glitch or failure will be worrisome and sending these boxes up north to a service center or overseas is real, if unlikely.
I believe in simplicity. A DAC like the Varese would demand from me if I owned one wires that would cost as much as the unit itself. The AQ Dragon source power cords alone would be about 50K retail. I hate to say this because I am rooting for the Varese and dCS. I am certain the engineers and sales folks are top notch, but it is completely impractical even if I had the money.
I have achieved a wonderful analog sound with incredible clarity and beauty with topline AQ solid silver connections, cords, and tubes with Niagara 5000 and 7000 power conditioners. These DAC's are only as good as their wires so be prepared to spend another 250K for the Varese.
Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest
Gear on Order: Hi Fi Rose 130RS Network Transport; Samsung internal SSD; Audioquest Wel Signature digital balanced 1-meter IC; Audioquest Diamond 1.5 meter USB cable; Audioquest Dragon 2-meter source power cord; HDMI cable 24’ for music videos
Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes
Hey I think you make some valid points. I am absolutely sincere when I say that I am thrilled that you are so happy. You don’t need to change a thing. Even after all these years I also question the necessity in digital complexity. Great power supplies, clocking and noise mitigation strategies do require some space but how much? I think it might depend upon the approach to the analog output. Here is some pure speculation and some food for thought: It’s interesting that in the Wadax studio ( even without the upcoming PS and clock) listeners remark about how close it comes to the reference. They start with a relatively inexpensive heavily modified chip and then apply their unique feed forward error correction technology to it. In this case it might actually be the shaping of the sound that many people so positively respond to and matter most. This software solution obviously doesn’t take up much hardware space as you get DAC streamer transport in one 40k box. It’s the sound shaping and not all the boxes and cables that matter most. DCS has a proprietary ring DAC and their whole focus beyond PS, noise rejection and clocking is data retrieval. My guess is that this takes up more hardware space and accounts for some feeling that DCS sounds “hard/harsh” in comparison. Digital is not always pretty. For DCS to retrieve more data it needs more hardware space ( the differential ring DAC) I own Vivaldi Apex but I am very open to Wadax after thorough listening comparison. I would love to simplify as much as possible. I wonder though if in correcting “errors” it is also filtering some data which would be required to hear some of the harmonics so that it can sound more “tape like”. Even if it does does it matter if overall I prefer it?
And if you have a vinyl source, I wouldn’t reach any conclusions about system quality unless I was sure the cartridge and arm are set up properly.
In fact I appreciate your views and really enjoy reading your opinions. Thumbs up showed it, even if we show some disagreement. But in fact I consider transparency a must in this hobby and I find this "optimization" issues a nebulous affair, that IMO benefit from proper discussion - it is why I answered to your posts. BTW, I had no problem with cross posting in threads - on the contrary I consider it a positive aspect of WBF.
Although not directly or intentionally, strong accusations against the high-end in general are being made when someone considers the numbers and status of poor setting up that you refer. When people find that they are not free to say what other people do in their systems and consider set up proprietary, I feel really sad. Probably others disagree, but it is my way of looking at high-end. And I am very cautious with "unique" messianic people that can't be scrutinized - I don't doubt they do excellent work, but can't see them as the model for this hobby.
I have no doubts that mysticism is part of high-end - we can't have rationale explanations for everything. I exclude some paths in the hobby because of it. But I hope that speaker placement is not part of it - we can't have high-end systems without it.
Just an observation…
For the Varese you just need to add five power cords. The other cables needed (four Actus cables) are included.
It appears to require fewer cables than your amplifier configuation.
I agree with Amir. AC Power and amplifier matching are critical. I use all tube MCD12000/C12000/MC3500's. My power is as expensive as my gear. Example MCD3500 (15K retail)/Niagara 5000 (5,900 dollars)/Dragon HC 1-meter cord (5,500 dollars)/ Dragon HC 2-meter cord (9,900 dollars). These power cords are solid silver, and I use nothing but them. Each MCD3500 has its own Niagara 5000.
This is my approach to digital sources, but I 100% respect the viewpoint that the absolute best sound must be obtained by the use of DAC's with multiple boxes. However, it's not for me.
Thank you, and I think that you also raise interesting questions. I have read the reviews of the Wadax Studio and If I didn't use McIntosh, it would be my DAC. I believe that it has a way/method/software of removing/isolating the preamp from the DAC, which is quite important to me as I believe that DAC's that include preamps have not been very successful. For the complexity of the additional gear like a clock or power supply to result in a full realization of the sonic benefit, additional wire and power cords must be added, increasing the cost substantially. Why not have the very best clock and power supply included in the single box? Then spend the money saved on superb wires, cords, and power conditioner.
This is my approach to digital sources, but I 100% respect the viewpoint that the absolute best sound must be obtained by the use of DAC's with multiple boxes. However, it's not for me.
Lee, 5 power cords is too much for me for a DAC. And the duplication of power supplies for each box and other critical circuitry is too much for me. I'll just take one extremely well engineered one box DAC and spend my money as I have described above. But each to his own. That's the beauty of the high-end.
Just to point that the quoted numbers for cords and wires and facts are wrong and can be misleading. Without CD/SACD player the Varese has 5 power cables and 4 ACTUS cables. ACTUS cables can't cost 50k - the current top Transparent digital cost around $5k - I own them in the dCS Vivaldi.
If you want a DAC that is highly linear and free from clock induced artefacts it will be complex, and I can't understand what you mean by over engineered. BTW, I use a quality power cable in the DAC, but different cheaper cables for clock, up sampler and transport. Not just for the money, but for better sound. A power cable that is good for analog is not forcefully good for digital basic functions.
The typical hide and seek game that makes some people consider this is a suspicious hobby ... What is the point of referring to services if you are not able to quote their prices?
i have banned myself from set up discussions on this DCS thread. I could message you a few more details if you are interested.
Hardly. Why rely on someone else instead of just contacting the principal directly to ask for the price of his services? What is stopping you from contacting him directly yourself?
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IMO the purpose of the forum is providing information for all its members, not free advertising. Pricing is a fundamental issue and should be released. dCS prices are public.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
I don’t understand what does it matter what it costs if it’s nebulous ?
I
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I know you are a busy person but you should read all posts before sniping a subject with ironic nonsenses ...
The subject is nebulous because people do not release clear information and we do not manage to discuss it in its absence.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
I forgot let me apologize
You are never wrong and therefore we all have to deal with your opinions about things you never experienced.
People release information all the time but you don’t agree so therefore it’s nonsense .
We get it !
You are never wrong and therefore we all have to deal with your opinions about things you never experienced.
People release information all the time but you don’t agree so therefore it’s nonsense .
We get it !
I hope you are able to do better than that - attacking the poster with insults to avoid discussing subjects in depth from other perspectives and points of views.
Although I have experience seeing real experts setting up speakers it is not relevant to the main subject being addressed by JiminGa and me.
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