Dedicated lines and properly integrated grounding. A discussion...

[treitz3]

Hello, ladies and gentlemen of the forum. This thread is dedicated [no pun intended ] to the discussion of how to achieve the absolute best performance out of your rig by properly integrating the ground on one or more dedicated lines when it comes to an audiophile system. From the very basics to the tweaks you have learned along the way to improve things that yielded a better end result as to what hits your ears.

Dedicated lines specifically for an audiophile system that are installed by a licensed electrician may or may not be beneficial in all aspects of reproduction. An improper phase or corroded ground anywhere on the circuit can wreak havoc on a finely tuned system, along with a possible plethora of other things. I have found this out firsthand.

Personally, I would ask that we start with the basics and progress from there into multiple dedicated lines. The reason for this thread is two fold. One to educate those who do not know what needs to be done to properly integrate a ground on dedicated [or multiple dedicated] lines for optimum performance and secondly, what will be discussed in this thread will ultimately be installed in my own rig. Well, that and I don't recall ever seeing any thread anywhere about optimizing grounds with specific tweaks to improve the end result.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and I look forward to any experience you might have to offer.

Tom

 

[mep]

This has been talked about to some extent before on other threads on WBF. Our head Ampex man had lots of good thoughts on star grounding your entire system.

 

[Speedskater]

For everything you need to know about AC power and Audio/Video systems:

The Bill Whitlock of Jensen Transformers Seminar paper
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/generic seminar.pdf

The Jim Brown of Audio Systems Group white paper
"Power and Grounding for Audio and Audio/Video Systems"
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf

"Power White Paper" from Middle Atlantic.com
http://www.middleatlantic.com/power.htm

 

[treitz3]

Good morning, gentlemen.

Thank you very much for those links, Speedskater. Those will take some time to go through as they are quite extensive. I will post any questions I may have after this has been completed.

Mark, I had already ran across the star grounding methods you mentioned on a couple of different threads. Within that (or similar) discussion, I remember reading about also taking the hot and neutral from the wall and soldering a gold spade to them and then screwing them down securely on the outlet. Yes, things like this have been touched on to some extent before but with no real discussion as to the benefits or drawbacks of doing so. Only what they did. With that said, I thought it would be nice to have everything in one place. Not only for my reference but others as well.

Tom

 

[1rsw]

Excellent thread, many thanks for starting this, Tom. It's a topic that I think is very relevant, misunderstood by many and rarely directly discussed that I have seen.

It's been a real issue for me because my gear is sort of spread out in 3 locations. This makes establishing a common ground challenging. When I first moved to this house and set things up I was not aware of the importance of ground, phase etc. All I knew was it always suggested in forums to have dedicated lines so I created dedicated lines for all 3 locations. These of course were on different circuits with separate grounds. I quickly discovered this was not ideal and honestly I have yet to find a solution. I've tried several different configurations and currently have a ground wire run from the outlet my amps are plugged in (basement) to the ground on the outlet my frontend (2nd floor) is plugged in with no ground wire back to the panel from the amps outlet. There is 1 other related line which is the outlet my video display is plugged into in the living room. This is actually the source of a slight hum I have never been able to resolve. It does not happen when playing 2 channel or I would lose my mind.

Looking forward to some discussion.

 

[Steve Williams]

My new room that is under construction has 12 20 amp and 2 30 amp lines all of which are dedicated on their own circuit

 

[vinylphilemag]

My new room that is under construction has 12 20 amp and 2 30 amp lines all of which are dedicated on their own circuit

Wow, and I thought I was going over-board with my planned ten 20A circuits! I salute you, sir!

 

[Steve Williams]

I use the 30 amp lines for my amplifier

 

[wes]

My new room that is under construction has 12 20 amp and 2 30 amp lines all of which are dedicated on their own circuit

Cool I will keep this in mind when I ever build a new house

 

[DonH50]

Note dedicated lines, if used for separate compoents, may be worse than using a single line as far as ground issues are concerned. Look up star grounds. Grounding for shields and signal returns gets complicated...

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I am not a big fan of dedicated lines myself either. I have explained the reasons why but they seem to be what audiophiles favor. Think of it this way they do absolutely nothing to isolate your system from the sources of power disturbances in and outside your house.

What are the so called dedicated lines: Simply a circuit with a breaker on it. In the electrical distribution system in most houses there is a "main panel" with a bunch f breakers on it. Breakers for the Electric Oven, another breaker for the Washing machine, another (dedicated breaker) for the Electric Dryer, etc. All these equipment usually have their own "dedicated" line. The dedicated line for your various amps is simply a set of breaker from a panel to your amps. The source stays the same: The main breaker. Actually all the branches are connected to each other in parallel

This is a picture of an USA-type Electrical panel.
View attachment 7890

The breakers are in there. You may have one or more of these but you get the gist. All the lines share the same upstream power. They are simply embranchments of it. Worse, disturbances from one branch gets carried to the others. In some instances you may experience it with your TV: When the AC compressor turns on some TV flickers ever so slightly or there is a weird bar on the screen or something . That is the visible part but several of these appliances introduce noise within their own lines and it makes it way upstream and pollute all the other lines. The "dedicated" to your system included.

What is the solution? Clean up, filter the Ac before it gets to your system. A large dedicated panel for your system , say a breaker panel but with the power it receives filtered and cleaned upl. You can then run "dedicated lines" if you want to but the power for these "dedicated" lines would have been filtered. IOW your upstream power is clean (well up to the ability of the filter). It is to me incredible that audiophiles have not espoused this simple logic: You must filter the nasties before they get in your system.

And I have not even approach grounding which is a path for the components to dispense of whatever nasties their own filtering would have caught, if you do not have a proper grounding the nasties stay inside with nowhere to go but to superpose themselves on the music... Grunding is a lot more complicated than that but ... and dedicated lines of the kind audiophiles think of create thier own problem whenit comes to establish a reference ground for the Audio system.

What are the filter available? Isolation transformers are one sort of filters. They are big , they tend to vibrate often noisily. I am not sure many contractors even know how to install them in a house but that is an aside. If the isolation transfo is of the correct rating say it is able to provide 1.5 to twice more power than the maximum power your system is likely to draw (more about this later, another post maybe) then it is as transparent as possible and to me a good solution. I believe that Torus makes such transfos. The particulars of the brand I don’t know too much but this is one solution and it can be good.

The other solution very in vogue with audiophile is the Equi=Tech balanced electrical power system. Works on the same principle as balanced audio lines that is there is + and minus and the reversal cancels outs the noise and nasties leaving clean power to your system. This should work rather well. The problem and limitations IME about the Equi=Tech is that electrical disturbances are not only noise but also and often variations of voltage and frequency, there is not much the Equi=Tech can do. It will clean the nasties but if the voltage drops to say 90 volts you will have clean 90 volts to the output ... Not a good thing for most system, If however your main is stable it is good.

I prefer the solution of Double conversion UPS. The ultimate as well as the more complicated but not necessarily expensive solution. Requires some forethought, planning and a person well versed in electrical systems ... Well a little bit tired with all that typing .. Later

 

[Steve Williams]

Point well made by you and Don, Frantz. Thank goodness I've not had a problem. My electrician has done some sort of grounding at the panel and sub panel where he has placed a grounding rod well away from the house. In my last room I also had dedicated lines and used star grounding.

 

[treitz3]

For those interested in star grounding - http://www.aikenamps.com/StarGround.html

I do have a question right off the bat concerning star grounding. If you have no hum in the system whatsoever, no input from a source and with the volume all of the way up, then what would the audible benefit of star grounding achieve?

Tom

 

[Steve Williams]

Great question Tom. I did star grounding in last house because of a very slight ground loop hum that only a cheater plug would correct. So far no need in my present room.

 

[microstrip]

(...) The other solution very in vogue with audiophile is the Equi=Tech balanced electrical power system. Works on the same principle as balanced audio lines that is there is + and minus and the reversal cancels outs the noise and nasties leaving clean power to your system. This should work rather well. The problem and limitations IME about the Equi=Tech is that electrical disturbances are not only noise but also and often variations of voltage and frequency, there is not much the Equi=Tech can do. It will clean the nasties but if the voltage drops to say 90 volts you will have clean 90 volts to the output ... Not a good thing for most system, If however your main is stable it is good.

Frantz,

I think there is some confusion on the advantages of balanced electrical power. Balanced power supply as used in the Equi=Tech and similar does not cancel the mains noise per se. Due to the transformer you can have some filtering of RF or high frequency components and some form of electrostatic decoupling due to transformer grounded screens inserted between primary and secondary, but in no way it cancels the noise by the principle the balanced audio lines do - otherwise it would cancel the mains signal also! Balanced audio inputs only cancel the existing common mode noise and the noise acquired along the lines after the output.

 

[vinylphilemag]

Frantz,

I think there is some confusion on the advantages of balanced electrical power. Balanced power supply as used in the Equi=Tech and similar does not cancel the mains noise per se. Due to the transformer you can have some filtering of RF or high frequency components and some form of electrostatic decoupling due to transformer grounded screens inserted between primary and secondary, but in no way it cancels the noise by the principle the balanced audio lines do - otherwise it would cancel the mains signal also! Balanced audio inputs only cancel the existing common mode noise and the noise acquired along the lines after the output.

I think you're misunderstanding the way the Equi=tech stuff works. The mains signal after the Equi=tech panel is balanced in the same manner as an audio signal, so it does provide protection from induced EMI by virtue of the same common mode rejection that balanced audio cables provide. So yes, they can cancel outside noise without affecting the 60 Hz mains frequency.

 

[microstrip]

I think you're misunderstanding the way the Equi=tech stuff works. The mains signal after the Equi=tech panel is balanced in the same manner as an audio signal, so it does provide protection from induced EMI by virtue of the same common mode rejection that balanced audio cables provide. So yes, they can cancel outside noise without affecting the 60 Hz mains frequency.

The balanced signal from the Equi=tech is NOT balanced in the way most audio signals are. Audio signals have usually common mode noise, as they are created by equipment having the same power supply and similar electronics characteristics - the noise signal will be the same in the two phases. A balancing transformer will NOT transform the mains input noise in common mode noise - it will invert the signal and noise, making both differential.

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

I think there is some confusion on the advantages of balanced electrical power. Balanced power supply as used in the Equi=Tech and similar does not cancel the mains noise per se. Due to the transformer you can have some filtering of RF or high frequency components and some form of electrostatic decoupling due to transformer grounded screens inserted between primary and secondary, but in no way it cancels the noise by the principle the balanced audio lines do - otherwise it would cancel the mains signal also! Balanced audio inputs only cancel the existing common mode noise and the noise acquired along the lines after the output.

microstrip

I have oftentimes stated that my preferences is not the Equi=Tech (love the name ). This should not be construed as a defense of blanced electrical power. A better understanding of the issue would have required a drawing maybe some other time. But there is some noise cancellation in a balanced power system. let's make it simple. if you were to measure the voltage between the two legs in a balanced power system it will be 120 Volts. if you measure however the voltage from one of the leg with respect to ground it will however be 60 volts. The voltage in each legs are in opposite phase with each other thus any noise in the legs cancels themselves to ground ... There is some noise cancellation

Will add that Equi is just one of the players and likely the most famous. There several others among them Furman.


@Steve

The presence of good grounding still doesn't solve the problem of nose riding on the lines. Filtering is a requisite to have such. OF course grounding is paramount it is the way to send the nasties out. Their evacuation route. The better the grounding the bete the evacuation route but you must filter the noise and grounding and dedicated lines can't do that.

For best power qulity Good filtering and proper grounding are necessary. Neither is sufficient.

 

[treitz3]

Note dedicated lines, if used for separate components, may be worse than using a single line as far as ground issues are concerned......

Hello, Don and thanks for your input. In what audible ways would it be worse and how would one need to design the circuit [or not design] in order to avoid this type of scenario?

Tom

 

[Steve Williams]

For best power qulity Good filtering and proper grounding are necessary. Neither is sufficient.

agreed but I have no discernible noise