Dedicated lines and properly integrated grounding. A discussion...

[Steve Williams]

Steve

I don't know he Torus line-up that much but it seems that they are the same: The RM stands for Rack Mounted form factor and the CS for COmpact Size. THey are the same, different boxes.

The problem one has to keep in mind with AC power quality is that it varies from day to day even from mins to mins. You could well have measured it at a given time and found it to be very good. Same measurements next day and it is a whole different nut. To me filtering at that level is indispensable. I do not advocate balanced power but it seems to me that Torus has a good lineup of products. They even provide automatic voltage regulation in some places a necessity. If you can find a dealer that allows in home audition it would be wise to. Your room being in the building stage if you like what you hear you can then move to a more permanent, invisible and potentially better solution. They have models for up to 12 KVA and even more enough for to gotham and every other thingsin your system playing at full power for peace of mind they have even larger custom made models.

I would advise to give it an audition in your system. the worst is that you don't like it and return it. The upside depending on how clean your AC power truly is, can be substantial.

Hi Frantz

you and i had this conversation privately well over 1 year ago. Like you I am not an advocate of balanced power.
Any final decisions on my part will determined after room completion and some critical listening

 

[Speedskater]

My understanding is that the benefit of using balanced audio cables is that they reject most (if not all) of the electrical interference pickup up by the cable through the air, i.e., the RFI, rather than any noise from the gear itself (unless it happens to be airborne). This is why they're most often recommended for longer runs: the cable acts as an antenna for airborne RFI, so the use of balanced cables helps mitigate that.

Assuming my understanding above is correct, then it seems reasonable to me that it would also apply to balanced power lines.

It's not just the well designed balanced (symmetrical) cables, it also requires well designed balanced input and output circuits. Almost no hi-fi components have well balanced AC input power supplies.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Thank you for your input, Mr. Mellor. Much appreciated. Does or will an isolation transformer prevent any kind of ground loop or buzz [harmonic], so long as the system is on the same circuit? Also, do they hamper the demand of current [clarify instantaneous power, please] available to the system?

Tom

Hi Tom

A power isolation transformer does not prevent ground loops - there is still a ground loop formed between two interconnected components via the safety ground in the power cord and the audio interconnect, whether single ended or balanced. The benefits of an iso tx in respect of ground loops are the same as using a single power strip or power conditioner to plug all of your components into - that all of your components have a common ground that is located physically close to the equipment. Using multiple dedicated lines can lead to very large ground loop areas - for example if you have a pre and power amplifier on separate dedicated lines with 30ft back to the panel then your loop area between outlets is 60ft. Even though the impedance of a thick high gauge romex cable is low it is not zero and so voltages can develop across that resistance and currents can flow. Even if you do not have audible ground loops (hums, buzzes) they can still exist and, simplistically speaking, will increase the noise in your system.

Instantaneous current can be thought of as the peak current drawn by a connected component. Linear power supplies (i.e. the types used in nearly all audio equipment) only draw current at the top and bottom of the AC waveform. They are maybe only drawing current 2-3 ms out of every cycle so the peak or instantaneous currents can be high as your equipment needs to get all it's power during this short period of time.

All transformers store energy in their magnetic field. The bigger the transformer the more energy is stored. The theory goes that this stored energy allows the transformer to supply higher instantaneous currents than the wall outlet can. Although the wall outlet can supply more current overall there are some long cables in your walls and from your house to the transformer on the pole outside. All this cabling has some resistance (properly called impedance) that acts as a brake (it 'resists') on the flow of current. The iso tx is a source of power that is connected to your equipment by short runs of cable that have low impedance. Hence the theory of why the iso tx can deliver higher instantaneous current than the wall.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Hi Frantz

you and i had this conversation privately well over 1 year ago. Like you I am not an advocate of balanced power.
Any final decisions on my part will determined after room completion and some critical listening

Just a little point of clarification. All transformers have a primary side (the side facing the mains power supply) and a secondary side (the side that faces your equipment).

'Balanced power' describes a situation where whereby both the secondary side neutral and hot are at 60V relative to ground. Equi=Tech units have balanced power and the diagram that MicroStrip posted from the Middle Atlantic White Paper also shows balanced power.

Torus units do not supply balanced power. They supply, in North America, a standard 120V on the hot. There are some Torus units with a BAL (balanced) designation. This actually refers to the primary side of the transformer. The BAL units take a 240V feed and output 120V.This 240V feed is the same type of feed that is supplied to AC compressors, electric ranges, dryers, etc. Pretty much all North American houses have a 240V feed. The BIG advantage of using a 240V feed to your equipment is that for the same amount of power draw the current through the wiring is halved so you can use lower gauge cables from your panel to your outlet. There is also a minor theoretical advantage with respect to cancellation of noise that is present on both 120V legs.

Disclosure: I am a Torus dealer. We have a demo 15A unit and their products are also available online from my store.

 

[vinylphilemag]

I have to say: this is a fascinating thread, and I'm learning a lot!

I am seriously looking at both the Equi=tech panal Torus' equivalent (single-ended operation notwithstanding), the WM 100 BAL. On the subject of the latter, there's one thing I don't understand about Torus' nomenclature: the TVSS designation (e.g., a WM 100 BAL vs a WM 100 BAL SS). What is this, and what does it offer?

If I may be permitted a little flag waving, I like the fact that Torus is a Canadian company!

 

[Speedskater]

The TVSS designation, only means "Transient Voltage Surge Protector/Suppressor"

 

[wes]

So I guess the best is to have your own source of electricity dedicated to the Audio and Video

Generator any one!

 

[Nyal Mellor]

The TVSS designation, only means "Transient Voltage Surge Protector/Suppressor"

The TVSS is an industrial grade shunt mode technology that is placed on the primary side of the transformer as a first line of defense. The standard non-sacrificial Series Mode Surge Suppression technology is on the secondary side. It's main purpose in my opinion is really to protect the transformer itself. An alternative would be to use a whole house surge suppressor. These boxes, from companies like SquareD (Schneider Electric), are available in places like Home Depot. They basically use big heavy duty metal oxide varistors (MOVs - but note these aren't the small ones that often fail and that are prevalent in 99% of power conditioning units that claim 'surge protection') that are designed to stop any of the really big surges (lightning, utility issues, etc) from entering your home. A better product in my opinion is the Environmental Potentials EP-2050. The EP unit has the additional benefit of cleaning up the sine wave through it's proprietary waveform correction technology. Please note both Torus and Environmental Potentials have their background in industrial and commercial power conditioning and protection. There is no audiophool BS from either of these companies, just well engineered stuff that works.

 

[Speedskater]

The correct UL term is Surge Protective Device SPD and the title of article 285 was changed from TVSS to SPD for the 2008 NEC

 

[vinylphilemag]

Thanks for the extra info!

Nyal, would I be correct in thinking you're a fellow (ex-)Brit? I saw your reference to Peter Belt (of magic tin foil fame) on the EP-2050 page to which you linked).

 

[microstrip]

(...) Torus units do not supply balanced power. They supply, in North America, a standard 120V on the hot. There are some Torus units with a BAL (balanced) designation. This actually refers to the primary side of the transformer. The BAL units take a 240V feed and output 120V.This 240V feed is the same type of feed that is supplied to AC compressors, electric ranges, dryers, etc. Pretty much all North American houses have a 240V feed. The BIG advantage of using a 240V feed to your equipment is that for the same amount of power draw the current through the wiring is halved so you can use lower gauge cables from your panel to your outlet. There is also a minor theoretical advantage with respect to cancellation of noise that is present on both 120V legs.
(...)

Nyal,

In this case, absolutely correct - you have a true balanced signal where most of the noise in the power lines arriving at your building should be common mode, so the 240V power transformer cancels it partially.

 

[treitz3]

Nyal, where would you place this in the circuit and would it shunt any current flow? Also, I take that this is not a whole house product. Am I correct in that assumption?

[The Environmental Potentials EP-2050 is pictured above]

Tom

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Nyal, where would you place this in the circuit and would it shunt any current flow? Also, I take that this is not a whole house product. Am I correct in that assumption?

[The Environmental Potentials EP-2050 is pictured above]

Tom

The EP-2050 is designed to be mounted in or next to your main or sub panel. It IS a whole house device; one that also offers waveform correction in addition to surge protection. It has four wires - two hot (for each of the 120V legs feeding your home), one neutral and one ground.

Environmental Potentials also make the Digiplug, which incorporates the technology in a different form factor. This one you can install in the electrical outlet feeding your equipment. It fits in one side of a two gang box. It's also a lot cheaper than the EP-2050 too. Obviously it is only protecting one of your 120V legs, not both, and is not really a whole house protector because it is at the end of your electrical line and the surges there look a lot different than the ones at the service entrance.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Thanks for the extra info!

Nyal, would I be correct in thinking you're a fellow (ex-)Brit? I saw your reference to Peter Belt (of magic tin foil fame) on the EP-2050 page to which you linked).

Yep, a brit living in Marin county, SF Bay Area. Originally from the 'norf' (Cumbria) but lived in South Wales, Oxford (whilst at college) and London. You?

 

[Bruce B]

So on my Equi=tech wall panel I got RFI/EMI filtering on 4 lines. Is this good or did I pay for something I didn't need?

 

[microstrip]

So on my Equi=tech wall panel I got RFI/EMI filtering on 4 lines. Is this good or did I pay for something I didn't need?

Most probably you will need them. See I wrote so the 240V power transformer cancels it partially and we know you are an exigent and demanding user. We surely want to cancel all mains noise.

 

[vinylphilemag]

Yep, a brit living in Marin county, SF Bay Area. Originally from the 'norf' (Cumbria) but lived in South Wales, Oxford (whilst at college) and London. You?

Originally from Chatham, Kent, but my last 6 years or so in the UK were spent in Basingstoke, Hants. I prefer to tell people that's where I'm from: if Kent is the garden of England then Chatham and the other Medway towns are the compost heap! My wife is from Maidstone.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Most probably you will need them. See I wrote so the 240V power transformer cancels it partially and we know you are an exigent and demanding user. We surely want to cancel all mains noise.

Isolation transformers, if properly designed, are lossy at higher frequencies so will give good noise filtration anyway. Any balancing, whether on the input or output side, reduces noise further, as does EMI / RFI filtration. The only issue sometimes with passive resistor-capacitor-inductor (e.g. Running Springs, Shunyata, etc) filters is that they either create noise on the ground or they add impedance. But then again no power conditioning technology is perfect, is it!?

 

[cjf]

View attachment 7898 View attachment 7899
http://www.toruspower.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Torus-Models-List-USA-4-pg-2012dec28.pdf

I don't know about pricing. It's expensive. But still a lot cheaper than fancy power cords.

I'm curious to know if a device like the Toruspower unit pictured could present other issues like polluting all the nearby equipment with massive amounts of EMI considing where it would need to be located in most rooms? Is the case made of MU Metal by chance

 

[Nyal Mellor]

I'm curious to know if a device like the Toruspower unit pictured could present other issues like polluting all the nearby equipment with massive amounts of EMI considing where it would need to be located in most rooms? Is the case made of MU Metal by chance

What about the big transformers in your power amps?

The Torus come in wall mount versions as well as versions that become your sub panel so you can put the huge iso tx into an equipment room. A lot of high end HTs have all the gear in an equipment room or closet, often outside the room. It's only us Audiophiles who like our gear on display and spread all over the floor