Dedicated lines and properly integrated grounding. A discussion...

[mep]

Steve-Is your room up and running?

 

[Steve Williams]

Almost

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Personally I vote for using a properly sized isolation transformer to establish a common ground close to your equipment. The Torus isolation transformers are virtually silent. DallasJustice installed a Torus RM60BAL recently and was very happy with the results.

Isolation transformers have the benefit of noise filtration, re-bonding of neutral to ground on the secondary side of the transformer, surge suppression and providing an ability to deliver higher instantaneous power than the wall outlet.

You can feed the iso. tx. with a single dedicated line. If you use a 240V in, 120V out unit (a BAL unit in Torus terminology) then it means your current flow through the dedicated line is halved, hence you do not need as high gauge a cable, which makes it easier to run and handle.

Honestly I think this is the best and simplest solution for everyone.

I have wrote a ton of info about power here: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/Why-Care-About-Power-and-Grounding.html

 

[treitz3]

Thank you for your input, Mr. Mellor. Much appreciated. Does or will an isolation transformer prevent any kind of ground loop or buzz [harmonic], so long as the system is on the same circuit? Also, do they hamper the demand of current [clarify instantaneous power, please] available to the system?

Tom

 

[dallasjustice]

I've always heard others claim that isolation transformers leave a coloration. The Torus does not. There are only advantages as far as I can tell. I have had the Torus rm60 balanced for a few months and I've been happy. I plug everything into it. I separate digital, dac and amp on each of the 3 trafos. The noise floor is non-existent, dead quiet and the current flows. It's particularly apparent listening at higher volume with complex music. Everything stays in place and dynamic passages come off more effortlessly. I don't worry about my system when a storm comes through. The electrical was minor. Since I already have 10\2 romex, I just had my electrician set up my circuit 30amp 240v for the torus which uses a washing machine outlet. Electricians call it a "china man" face. The Tous rates each phase at 20 amps, 120v with dynamic current availble more than 100 amps per phase; way more than you could get from a wall. My Soulution 710 sounds better on the Torus. In fact, I sold all my expensive and massive Elrod cords!

Nyal's heard my system; he could say whether he thinks it lacks dynamics or speed plugged into the Torus. ;-)

 

[microstrip]

microstrip

I have oftentimes stated that my preferences is not the Equi=Tech (love the name ). This should not be construed as a defense of blanced electrical power. A better understanding of the issue would have required a drawing maybe some other time. But there is some noise cancellation in a balanced power system. let's make it simple. if you were to measure the voltage between the two legs in a balanced power system it will be 120 Volts. if you measure however the voltage from one of the leg with respect to ground it will however be 60 volts. The voltage in each legs are in opposite phase with each other thus any noise in the legs cancels themselves to ground ... There is some noise cancellation

Frantz,
I love when people who many times defend engineering deny simple vector calculus saying let's make it simple ...
The issue is really more complicated than you are assuming.

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,
I love when people who many times defend engineering deny simple vector calculus saying let's make it simple ...
The issue is really more complicated than you are assuming.

microstrip

so please educate us... We are all ears. I am not assuming it is simple I tried an explanation that will fit within the confines of a audiophile discussion if you want to elevate the debate to something academic or if you can add something that will make us understand more the issues at stake, by all means do. Your sarcasm is not helping much.

@everybody

I also like the simplicity of isolation transformers. I do not know much about the particulars of the Torus but think the isolation transformers of the type used in Hospital could be used with great results in many systems . They are much cheaper than audiophiles-approved brands and perform the same functions.

 

[Steve Williams]

I've always heard others claim that isolation transformers leave a coloration. The Torus does not. There are only advantages as far as I can tell. I have had the Torus rm60 balanced for a few months and I've been happy. I plug everything into it. I separate digital, dac and amp on each of the 3 trafos. The noise floor is non-existent, dead quiet and the current flows. It's particularly apparent listening at higher volume with complex music. Everything stays in place and dynamic passages come off more effortlessly. I don't worry about my system when a storm comes through. The electrical was minor. Since I already have 10\2 romex, I just had my electrician set up my circuit 30amp 240v for the torus which uses a washing machine outlet. Electricians call it a "china man" face. The Tous rates each phase at 20 amps, 120v with dynamic current availble more than 100 amps per phase; way more than you could get from a wall. My Soulution 710 sounds better on the Torus. In fact, I sold all my expensive and massive Elrod cords!

Nyal's heard my system; he could say whether he thinks it lacks dynamics or speed plugged into the Torus. ;-)

How big is the unit, where in your room do you house it and what's MSRP

 

[microstrip]

microstrip

so please educate us... We are all ears.

I explained it in an easy way in post #17. If you have doubts please ask for any specific aspect. I will be happy to help.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?9426-Dedicated-lines-and-properly-integrated-grounding-A-discussion&p=168757&viewfull=1#post168757

 

[vinylphilemag]

The balanced signal from the Equi=tech is NOT balanced in the way most audio signals are. Audio signals have usually common mode noise, as they are created by equipment having the same power supply and similar electronics characteristics - the noise signal will be the same in the two phases. A balancing transformer will NOT transform the mains input noise in common mode noise - it will invert the signal and noise, making both differential.

My understanding is that the benefit of using balanced audio cables is that they reject most (if not all) of the electrical interference pickup up by the cable through the air, i.e., the RFI, rather than any noise from the gear itself (unless it happens to be airborne). This is why they're most often recommended for longer runs: the cable acts as an antenna for airborne RFI, so the use of balanced cables helps mitigate that.

Assuming my understanding above is correct, then it seems reasonable to me that it would also apply to balanced power lines.

 

[DonH50]

They only reject common-mode signals; the biggest benefit is rejection of LF ground noise in most applications, and they allow you to isolate the signal return ("signal ground") from the shield ("chassis ground") thus reducing susceptibility to ground loops as well.

 

[microstrip]

My understanding is that the benefit of using balanced audio cables is that they reject most (if not all) of the electrical interference pickup up by the cable through the air, i.e., the RFI, rather than any noise from the gear itself (unless it happens to be airborne). This is why they're most often recommended for longer runs: the cable acts as an antenna for airborne RFI, so the use of balanced cables helps mitigate that.

Assuming my understanding above is correct, then it seems reasonable to me that it would also apply to balanced power lines.

The rejection factor at RFI frequencies is almost null in typical audio balanced circuits. Balanced audio cables are sometimes helpful in cases of severe RFI interference because you can ground the shield on just one of the extremes of the cable. But many times RFI interference is a very complicated matter to diagnose and reduce.

Sometimes a balanced connection input reduces the noise and distortion due to the source. Audio Research and Atma-Sphere preamplifiers have such behavior - they measure and sound better when the output is used in balanced mode

 

[dallasjustice]

How big is the unit, where in your room do you house it and what's MSRP

http://www.toruspower.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Torus-Models-List-USA-4-pg-2012dec28.pdf

I don't know about pricing. It's expensive. But still a lot cheaper than fancy power cords.

 

[Steve Williams]

View attachment 7898 View attachment 7899
http://www.toruspower.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Torus-Models-List-USA-4-pg-2012dec28.pdf

I don't know about pricing. It's expensive. But still a lot cheaper than fancy power cords.

here's what I found

http://www.elegantaudiovideo.com/pr...e-Input-Audio-Video-Power-Isolation-Unit.html

what is the difference between the RM 60 BAL and the CS 60 Bal

 

[dallasjustice]

here's what I found

http://www.elegantaudiovideo.com/pr...e-Input-Audio-Video-Power-Isolation-Unit.html

what is the difference between the RM 60 BAL and the CS 60 Bal

Have you ever bought from them before? You on your own if you don't get it from a dealer.

 

[Bill Hart]

Here's my experience, with a few questions thrown in (hopefully all on topic):

1. I agree that doing dedicated lines alone does not minimize disturbances from other electrical apparatus or appliances in the house.
2. I also agree that having separate dedicated lines for different gear in the same system may increase grounding differences between the components; as i understood the 'British' approach, it was to use a single line, with a power distribution block (think fancy power strip with or without filtering). Probably not feasible for systems with big, power hungry amps.
a. I am not sure if, as a matter of code or practice, the grounds among the different dedicated lines can be daisy chained to minimize grounding differences mentioned in 2, above.
b. I've employed an external star grounding device with mixed success. If there are oddities in how the ground is handled within the chassis of a given component, I'm not sure external star grounding can effectively ameliorate that.
3. I have a separate subpanel and additional ground rod for the system, but obviously, as mentioned earlier in this thread, it still shares the same electrical and grounding as the rest of the house. I believe my subpanel is connected before the main breaker box, and has its own large breaker feeding several dedicated lines. I still hear over the system some light fixtures and appliances elsewhere in the house if they are operating. Solution: I don't use those appliances or lights during listening sessions.
4. I bought the big Equi=Tech wall cabinet for my next room, which i hope to house in a separate building from the house. We will see.
5. I wouldn't mind getting separate electrical service for the building (if I can go that way), but if it is fed from the same transformer on the street, I'm not sure how much of an improvement that will be unless I was the only one on that transformer, which is doubtful (although, somehow, I think that Albert Porter managed to do that).
6. When I do the next room, I am going to try to find an electrical contractor who has worked on recording studios. Most of the electrical contractors I have worked with, while competent in most cases, don't have a clue when it comes to hi-fi related issues. (I'm not saying they are all clueless, just haven't worked with any that are savvy to sound installations).
7. I don't have vast experience with power conditioners. I did use some Shunyata stuff 6 or 7 years ago and frankly thought the system sounded better after eliminating all of it and just using the dedicated lines. Not saying filtering is taboo, and I guess using a big isolation transformer is a form of filter. I know in the case of Lamm gear, he discourages the use of any sort of power conditioning except where the line is really nasty.
That's all I got. TIA on any responses to my questions.

 

[Steve Williams]

Have you ever bought from them before? You on your own if you don't get it from a dealer.

Take a relax. I did a search and that's what I found. I'm not the least bit interested in this unit

 

[FrantzM]

Take a relax. I did a search and that's what I found. I'm not the least bit interested in this unit

Steve

I don't know he Torus line-up that much but it seems that they are the same: The RM stands for Rack Mounted form factor and the CS for COmpact Size. THey are the same, different boxes.

The problem one has to keep in mind with AC power quality is that it varies from day to day even from mins to mins. You could well have measured it at a given time and found it to be very good. Same measurements next day and it is a whole different nut. To me filtering at that level is indispensable. I do not advocate balanced power but it seems to me that Torus has a good lineup of products. They even provide automatic voltage regulation in some places a necessity. If you can find a dealer that allows in home audition it would be wise to. Your room being in the building stage if you like what you hear you can then move to a more permanent, invisible and potentially better solution. They have models for up to 12 KVA and even more enough for to gotham and every other thingsin your system playing at full power for peace of mind they have even larger custom made models.

I would advise to give it an audition in your system. the worst is that you don't like it and return it. The upside depending on how clean your AC power truly is, can be substantial.

 

[1rsw]

Ironic that the Torus units have been mentioned here. I've been researching them and am pretty sure I would like to try them. I recently bought a similar device, Silver Circle Pure Power 5.0 (http://www.silvercircleaudio.com/Html/products/50.html) and it has performed better than a lot of power devices I've had (many!). It's performance has me thinking that this concept of isolation transformers for audio should be a part of my AC plan, which and how being the next step. I'm using this on my front end gear only. As I mentioned in the previous post, my amps are in a separate location as is my video display so I still have the problem of separate ground...and it is a problem. The way I understand it, even if there is not an audible hum, there could be enough noise on the line to have a negative impact on how my gear performs. I'm still not sure what to do other than rerunning the lines so they are all on one circuit, common ground etc. Ideal world I would have all my gear in one spot but that would mean eliminating my wife and expanding my living room...hmmmm....extreme but doable!

 

[microstrip]

After digging in my old audio folders I found again the excellent publication from Middle Atlantic Products "Integrating Electronic Equipment and Power into Rack Enclosures". The good news is that it is now freely available on the net.

www.middleatlantic.com/pdf/PowerPaper.pdf

For those who are really interested in reading about dedicated lines and grounding I would recommend reading it, remembering that security codes are local, and what is legal in some parts of the world is not legal in others and vice versa.