Degritter ultrasonic record cleaner

Hi y’all, just a few words on what I think is a worthy alternative to the Audio Desk Systeme and KLAudio ultrasonic cleaners.

http://degritter.com/media-kit/

I’ve been a beta tester on the Degritter for the last few weeks, and am happy to offer my opinions and answer any qs for those interested.

I believe official launch is in early May, and at this stage after a couple of quibbles in day to day use, I’m planning to keep my unit, it’s been a pretty good success, and invaluable addition to day to day life as a vinyl addict.
 
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Dec 31, 2015
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I promised to come back with some data on how TDS changes following record cleaning, after receiving my TDS meter. Here it is. Hope this is at least thought-stimulating!

(The next 4 paragraphs are from Wikipedia, edited for content) Total dissolved solids (TDS) is a measure of the dissolved combined content of all inorganic and organic substances present in a liquid in molecular, ionized, or micro-granular suspended form. Generally, the operational definition is that the solids must be small enough to survive filtration through a filter with 2-micron pores.

Total dissolved solids are differentiated from total suspended solids (TSS), in that the latter cannot pass through a sieve of 2 micrometers and yet are indefinitely suspended in solution. The term settleable solids refers to material of any size that will not remain suspended or dissolved in a holding tank not subject to motion and excludes both TDS and TSS. Settleable solids may include larger particulate matter or insoluble molecules.

The two principal methods of measuring total dissolved solids are gravimetric analysis and conductivity. Gravimetric methods are the most accurate and involve evaporating the liquid solvent and measuring the mass of residues left. This method is generally the best, although it is time-consuming. If inorganic salts comprise the great majority of TDS, gravimetric methods are appropriate.

Electrical conductivity of water is directly related to the concentration of dissolved ionized solids in the water. Ions from the dissolved solids in water create the ability for that water to conduct an electric current, which can be measured using a conventional conductivity meter or TDS meter. When correlated with laboratory TDS measurements, conductivity provides an approximate value for the TDS concentration, usually to within ten-percent accuracy.

The electrical conductivity (EC) of an aqueous solution increases with temperature significantly: about 2% per degree Celsius. A linear formula that can be used to standardize conductivity to 25 degrees C is shown below:
ECt / EC25 = 1+0.020 (t−25)

To perform these tests, the Degritter reservoir was rinsed 3 times with distilled water. A new water filter was rinsed 3 times with distilled water and then inserted into the machine. For each measurement, TDS and EC were measured at least in duplicate. Since EC and TDS are a function of temperature, and ultrasonic cleaning raises the temperature of the water used for cleaning substantially, temperature was also measured for each data point. EC25 was then calculated for each reading. The water reservoir was filled to “Max” and readings taken. A quarter cap (approximately 2 mL) of Degritter record cleaning fluid was then added to the reservoir and mixed thoroughly. In order to estimate of the variability of the independent measurements, 5 readings of the distilled water plus cleaning fluid were obtained.

TDS and EC were measured using a Kinper (UPC 884017357216; Amazon) handheld meter. The Kinper TDS meter can test TDS, EC and temperature. Its measuring range of TDS is 0-9999 ppm ± 2%, the EC range 0-9999 μs/cm ± 2%, and the temp range is 32-212°F, 0-99°C with accuracy 2% ℃ (manufacturer specifications).

A series of 10 records were cleaned. After each cleaning, TDS, EC and Temp were immediately measured before cleaning the next record. Each was measured in duplicate and the average value of ECt used to calculate EC25. Prior to Degritter cleaning, each LP was gently cleaned twice with a microfiber brush. No obviously filthy records were cleaned. Each record had been previously played. None were a recent reissue. The Degritter was set to “Heavy” wash with 13:15 was and 4 min 30 sec drying cycle. The Degritter automatically cools the water during a wash cycle if the temperature exceeds the programmed value (not stated in the manual, but appears to be between 85-90 degrees F).

The first 5 LPs were washed consecutively, pausing only long enough to complete water measurements and load the next LP for cleaning. After the 5th LP, the water was allowed to cool so that the effect of temperature on TDS and EC could be directly measured. The next 5 LPs were then cleaned consecutively, only pausing long enough to complete the water measurements.

Duplicate measurements following the cleaning of each LP are shown below. Two sets of measurements are shown for LP#5: immediately after cleaning and after the reservoir water had been allowed to cool (LP5 cool).

After measurements were obtained following cleaning of the 10th LP, the reservoir water was visually inspected and appeared to be completely clear. An unused water filter was then rinsed 3 times with distilled water, the water filter from the tank was also removed, any lint-like material removed by hand (and there was some) and the 2 filters compared visually (see picture).

Thoughts and conclusions:
--TDS meter measures dissolved ionized solids, not suspended or “settle-able” solids.
--The Kinper TDS meter is inexpensive (around $12) and gives reasonably reproducible measurements of TDS and EC.
--TDS and EC are affected by temperature, and temperature increases during ultrasonic cleaning. To monitor TDS and EC during cleaning, it is important to also measure temperature and standardize EC to 25 degrees C.
--There was very little absolute increase in TDS or EC25 values following cleaning of 10 LPs.
--TDS or EC measurements may be useful to help decide when to change reservoir water, in combination with water clarity, especially if a large number of LPs are cleaned in a week.
--The water filter does NOT remove the soluble ions associated with increases in TDS or EC. By definition, TDS are small (< 2 micron in size) and soluble. The water filter only removes suspended or settle-able particles larger than around 4 microns. (For informational purposes, reverse osmosis membranes, which CAN remove soluble ions from water, have a pore size of 0.0001 microns.)
--Water clarity must be monitored and if the water is not clear, it should be replaced. Degritter recommends changing the water weekly, or if the water is not clear. These seem to be reasonable recommendations.
--It would be extremely difficult to determine a threshold value of TDS or EC above which the water should be replaced.
 

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dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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This is quite an extensive experiment and write-up. Thanks for both.

I have a couple questions just to make sure I understand the results.

1 - What is driving the increase in the TDS readings at the top right of the chart (rinsed reservoir #1 - #5)? Is that just the addition of the cleaning fluid?

2 - Based on the chart the increase in TDS PPM was about 8 by LP #10?
 
Dec 31, 2015
76
50
123
Solana Beach, CA
This is quite an extensive experiment and write-up. Thanks for both.

I have a couple questions just to make sure I understand the results.

1 - What is driving the increase in the TDS readings at the top right of the chart (rinsed reservoir #1 - #5)? Is that just the addition of the cleaning fluid?

2 - Based on the chart the increase in TDS PPM was about 8 by LP #10?
Yes to question 1. Adding the cleaning fluid increased the TDS and EC. Presumably, some sort of ionic cleaning agent is used.

I would say that by the end of LP 7 or 8, there has been a "real" increase in TDS and EC. I'm probably going to continue this little experiment in a couple of days, because I'm curious to see what is going to happen.
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
1,309
389
180
Yes to question 1. Adding the cleaning fluid increased the TDS and EC. Presumably, some sort of ionic cleaning agent is used.

I would say that by the end of LP 7 or 8, there has been a "real" increase in TDS and EC. I'm probably going to continue this little experiment in a couple of days, because I'm curious to see what is going to happen.
Thanks.

In my DIY ultrasonic setup, after 20 LPs the TDS is still below 0004 which means my active filtering is working.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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the Upper Midwest
Thoughts and conclusions:
--TDS meter measures dissolved ionized solids, not suspended or “settle-able” solids.
--The Kinper TDS meter is inexpensive (around $12) and gives reasonably reproducible measurements of TDS and EC.
--TDS and EC are affected by temperature, and temperature increases during ultrasonic cleaning. To monitor TDS and EC during cleaning, it is important to also measure temperature and standardize EC to 25 degrees C.
--There was very little absolute increase in TDS or EC25 values following cleaning of 10 LPs.
--TDS or EC measurements may be useful to help decide when to change reservoir water, in combination with water clarity, especially if a large number of LPs are cleaned in a week.
--The water filter does NOT remove the soluble ions associated with increases in TDS or EC. By definition, TDS are small (< 2 micron in size) and soluble. The water filter only removes suspended or settle-able particles larger than around 4 microns. (For informational purposes, reverse osmosis membranes, which CAN remove soluble ions from water, have a pore size of 0.0001 microns.)
--Water clarity must be monitored and if the water is not clear, it should be replaced. Degritter recommends changing the water weekly, or if the water is not clear. These seem to be reasonable recommendations.
--It would be extremely difficult to determine a threshold value of TDS or EC above which the water should be replaced.
Kudos to you Hagerty for doing this work and writing it up to share. It's great to have this information.

Worth noting is the Degritter filter threshold of 4 microns. I assumed that figure comes from them?

From the filters I've looked at, the majority of them are nominally rated although almost none will tell you their efficiency rating. That would look, as an example, something like 80% of 4 micron, which indicates the filter traps 80% of all particulate 4 microns in size of larger. A few filters will receive absolute ratings based on a consistent pore size throughout - these tend to be more expensive.

It's certainly a positive that Degritter has an in-line filter versus none. I wonder if use of alternative filter material is possible? I would think as long as one could insert and extract a filter and it works satisfactorily with the pump pressure and conaminant concentration, better results may be achieved with alternative media. I wonder has any one inquired of DeGritter about this.

I looked at RO membranes. The have a fine low pore size but require more time to do their work than is required by a continual flow in-line filter.

The Degritter filtering ability is partly a function of the size of the machine - as it is for all the desktop machines. I'm surprised no one other than KLA considered adding an inlet. Coupled with a drain that could allow use of a standardized external filter and pump potentially useable with any desktop USC RCM. But more likely as a manufacturer proprietary add-on.

Of course it's all in the implementation details, but I suspect paying attention to filteration is far less expensive than devising some sort of automated rinse mechanism with rinse water separate from wash solution.

Another consideration is the Degritter cleaning fluid. I wonder if they would tell us if alternative cleaning solutions can be used? (@degritter_taniel ?) Or how closely tied are their claimed results to their cleaning fluid? I only ask because there may be other surfactants with lower native and diluted TDS.

The bottom line being that whatever is in the solution at dry time is what will be left on the record after it dries.

I noticed your mention of temperature and TDS/EC readings. It was interesting that you included a pause for temperature to lower. How does Degritter cool the water? Is it by just not running the cavitators or running them at a lower frequency? I speculate the size of solution tank has something to do with the rise in TDS as the temperature increases.

It is a curiosity because I don't experience an increase in TDS as the solution temperature goes from room temperature to the ~30°C temp (~86°F) I use. David added a cooler to insure his solution temp is kept constant - @dminches do you see a TDS change you would correlate with temperature? Presumably such an increase comes from increased solubilization of particulate with increased temperature - but that's a guess.

I like that you distinquish particulate in terms of dissolved, suspended and settle-able. This calls attention to dirt etc. that may remain in the wash tank and build up over time. Maybe some do but I have not heard of destop RCM manufacturers talking much about cleaning their wash tanks. Fixed slotted covers are a hinderance to tank cleaning. Certain internal materials may be more or less easy to clean. I'd like to hear owners thoughts on this.

Thanks again for your write-up. Nice job!
 
Likes: dminches

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
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Kudos to you Hagerty for doing this work and writing it up to share. It's great to have this information.

(....)

It is a curiosity because I don't experience an increase in TDS as the solution temperature goes from room temperature to the ~30°C temp (~86°F) I use. David added a cooler to insure his solution temp is kept constant - @dminches do you see a TDS change you would correlate with temperature? Presumably such an increase comes from increased solubilization of particulate with increased temperature - but that's a guess.
The addition of the cooler was not a complete success. While the cooler did its job of keeping the solution at 30°C, the TDS readings increased materially after 2-3 cleaning sessions. This caused me to worry that the cleaning solution was interacting with the radiator materials. I haven't had the time to figure this out but I did remove the radiator and 2nd pump now that the weather is cooler. I do want to give it another go at some point because I did like that I could achieve constant temperatures.

I like that you distinquish particulate in terms of dissolved, suspended and settle-able. This calls attention to dirt etc. that may remain in the wash tank and build up over time. Maybe some do but I have not heard of destop RCM manufacturers talking much about cleaning their wash tanks. Fixed slotted covers are a hinderance to tank cleaning. Certain internal materials may be more or less easy to clean. I'd like to hear owners thoughts on this.
@tima Do you clean the tank and, if so, what do you use to clean it?
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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@tima Do you clean the tank and, if so, what do you use to clean it?
Good question, David.

I clean the Elmasonic's stainless steel tank each time I change solution. It's a wide open tank with curved interior corners that make it easy to clean. I use a lint free cloth and isopropyl alcohol to wipe the interior. I'll also turn the cloth into the drain. Then rinse with distilled water. Lastly I'll burn a few gallons of distilled water by partially filling the tank and running that through the filtering system then eventually into a bucket. When I change the filter I clean the cannister and do a couple manual rinses with distilled water.

By the way - once you removed the radiator and second pump, did the TDS count no longer go up?

I should add a note on this to the DIY RCM thread for those taking that road.
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
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Good question, David.

I clean the Elmasonic's stainless steel tank each time I change solution. It's a wide open tank with curved interior corners that make it easy to clean. I use a lint free cloth and isopropyl alcohol to wipe the interior. I'll also turn the cloth into the drain. Then rinse with distilled water. Lastly I'll burn a few gallons of distilled water by partially filling the tank and running that through the filtering system then eventually into a bucket. When I change the filter I clean the cannister and do a couple manual rinses with distilled water.

By the way - once you removed the radiator and second pump, did the TDS count no longer go up?

I should add a note on this to the DIY RCM thread for those taking that road.
When I eliminated the radiator the TDS readings returned to their "normal" 0002-0004 range. It seemed obvious to me that the radiator addition was responsible for the increased TDS readings. What I don't know is why. My guess is that the radiator isn't designed to carry isopropyl and that could be causing some reaction with the materials. I don't think distilled water would be an issue and I don't think the temperature is an issue since I assume that the cooling liquid in computers (which is what this radiator is designed for) run at similar temperatures.
 
Likes: tima
Dec 31, 2015
76
50
123
Solana Beach, CA
Kudos to you Hagerty for doing this work and writing it up to share. It's great to have this information.

Worth noting is the Degritter filter threshold of 4 microns. I assumed that figure comes from them?

From the filters I've looked at, the majority of them are nominally rated although almost none will tell you their efficiency rating. That would look, as an example, something like 80% of 4 micron, which indicates the filter traps 80% of all particulate 4 microns in size of larger. A few filters will receive absolute ratings based on a consistent pore size throughout - these tend to be more expensive.

It's certainly a positive that Degritter has an in-line filter versus none. I wonder if use of alternative filter material is possible? I would think as long as one could insert and extract a filter and it works satisfactorily with the pump pressure and conaminant concentration, better results may be achieved with alternative media. I wonder has any one inquired of DeGritter about this.

I looked at RO membranes. The have a fine low pore size but require more time to do their work than is required by a continual flow in-line filter.

The Degritter filtering ability is partly a function of the size of the machine - as it is for all the desktop machines. I'm surprised no one other than KLA considered adding an inlet. Coupled with a drain that could allow use of a standardized external filter and pump potentially useable with any desktop USC RCM. But more likely as a manufacturer proprietary add-on.

Of course it's all in the implementation details, but I suspect paying attention to filteration is far less expensive than devising some sort of automated rinse mechanism with rinse water separate from wash solution.

Another consideration is the Degritter cleaning fluid. I wonder if they would tell us if alternative cleaning solutions can be used? (@degritter_taniel ?) Or how closely tied are their claimed results to their cleaning fluid? I only ask because there may be other surfactants with lower native and diluted TDS.

The bottom line being that whatever is in the solution at dry time is what will be left on the record after it dries.

I noticed your mention of temperature and TDS/EC readings. It was interesting that you included a pause for temperature to lower. How does Degritter cool the water? Is it by just not running the cavitators or running them at a lower frequency? I speculate the size of solution tank has something to do with the rise in TDS as the temperature increases.

It is a curiosity because I don't experience an increase in TDS as the solution temperature goes from room temperature to the ~30°C temp (~86°F) I use. David added a cooler to insure his solution temp is kept constant - @dminches do you see a TDS change you would correlate with temperature? Presumably such an increase comes from increased solubilization of particulate with increased temperature - but that's a guess.

I like that you distinquish particulate in terms of dissolved, suspended and settle-able. This calls attention to dirt etc. that may remain in the wash tank and build up over time. Maybe some do but I have not heard of destop RCM manufacturers talking much about cleaning their wash tanks. Fixed slotted covers are a hinderance to tank cleaning. Certain internal materials may be more or less easy to clean. I'd like to hear owners thoughts on this.

Thanks again for your write-up. Nice job!
The information on the water filter was obtained at the following link: https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/751755 Taniel Pold (Degritter CEO) made the following posts regarding the water filter. You have to scroll pretty far down the page to find them, so I'll post excerpts here in quotes:
"The filter in the machine consists of two elements, first there is a mesh filter with 0.1mm for larger particles. Next there is an open cell filter cylinder inside the mesh filter. The soft filter material is rated to 60 PPI and the water has to travel through approximately 15mm - 20mm of the material. Both of the filter components can be easily accessed when there is a need to wash or replace them."

"The polyurethane foam filter material (with 60 ppi) used in Degritter is capable of removing particles with the size upwards of 1-2 microns. It is possible to replace the filter in the filter housing with your own custom filter material if this is desired.

When going after super low TDS (total dissolved solids) in the water, we recommend using the machine with two external water tanks. One for washing with cleaning fluid and one for rinsing the record after the wash."

"The machine allows to run washing programs without the drying setting. When using the machine with two external water tanks you can first run one washing program with the cleaning fluid solution, after which you can replace the water tank with a tank containing pure distilled water and then you can run a quick washing program together with drying cycle to rinse and dry the record.

Replacing water tanks takes a few seconds. You just need to pull out one tank and insert the other one."

I had considered buying a separate rinse tank as Taniel suggested, but decided to try the machine as-is first. So far, the LPs come out extremely "clean". My impression is that more records come out "cleaner" (meaning fewer ticks and pops) than with the DIY ultrasonic cleaning tank and VPI 16.5 vacuum drying combination that I was using before I purchased the Degritter. So far, I've not been tempted to buy a 2nd rinse tank, FWIW. BTW, changing water reservoirs IS as easy as Taniel says.

If anyone is interested in the mathematical relationship between temperature and conductivity, here is a link to a website where I found a simple, linear formula: https://www.aqion.de/site/112

Here is the link to the Wikipedia website where I got the information about Total Dissolved Solids:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_dissolved_solids
 
Likes: tima
Jun 26, 2019
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You should get a TDS meter to check the liquid. It will give you and indication as to when it should be changed.

Here is the one I have which doesn't seem to be available from amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075TZZTXR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

After cleaning 50+ records my reading is still 0004 or lower in my DIY cleaner. I have an active filtration system to continuously clean the water.
Can you please share how to built such DIY solution fluid?
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
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Likes: tima

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
1,568
1,080
230
the Upper Midwest
The information on the water filter was obtained at the following link: https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/751755 Taniel Pold (Degritter CEO) made the following posts regarding the water filter. You have to scroll pretty far down the page to find them, so I'll post excerpts here in quotes:
"The filter in the machine consists of two elements, first there is a mesh filter with 0.1mm for larger particles. Next there is an open cell filter cylinder inside the mesh filter. The soft filter material is rated to 60 PPI and the water has to travel through approximately 15mm - 20mm of the material. Both of the filter components can be easily accessed when there is a need to wash or replace them."

"The polyurethane foam filter material (with 60 ppi) used in Degritter is capable of removing particles with the size upwards of 1-2 microns. It is possible to replace the filter in the filter housing with your own custom filter material if this is desired.

When going after super low TDS (total dissolved solids) in the water, we recommend using the machine with two external water tanks. One for washing with cleaning fluid and one for rinsing the record after the wash."

"The machine allows to run washing programs without the drying setting. When using the machine with two external water tanks you can first run one washing program with the cleaning fluid solution, after which you can replace the water tank with a tank containing pure distilled water and then you can run a quick washing program together with drying cycle to rinse and dry the record.

Replacing water tanks takes a few seconds. You just need to pull out one tank and insert the other one."

I had considered buying a separate rinse tank as Taniel suggested, but decided to try the machine as-is first. So far, the LPs come out extremely "clean". My impression is that more records come out "cleaner" (meaning fewer ticks and pops) than with the DIY ultrasonic cleaning tank and VPI 16.5 vacuum drying combination that I was using before I purchased the Degritter. So far, I've not been tempted to buy a 2nd rinse tank, FWIW. BTW, changing water reservoirs IS as easy as Taniel says.

If anyone is interested in the mathematical relationship between temperature and conductivity, here is a link to a website where I found a simple, linear formula: https://www.aqion.de/site/112

Here is the link to the Wikipedia website where I got the information about Total Dissolved Solids:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_dissolved_solids
Dthagerty, I am remiss in not thanking you for gathering this information on the Degritter.
 
Most TDS meters will auto correct for temp, so not surprising to see very small increase in TDS. What is coming off the record surface is, as you've observed, suspended solids. As I always describe to my customers, dissolved solids are like putting table salt, or sugar, in water, it dissolves and disappears. This would measure strongly as increase in TDS. Suspended solids are like putting ground pepper in water, it won't dissolve but just floats (or sinks), this won't measure on the TDS meter. (Total Dissolved Solids or TDS)

Sieve filters are rated absolute or nominal. Absolute removes >99% of particles down to the rated size (.1, .2, .5 micron) where as (as stated above) a nominal filter removes a lesser percentage (80%) of particles of the rated size. Absolute filters are more expensive for this reason.

As I am in the business of producing water systems that combine reverse osmosis and deionization (to produce water with generally less than 1 ppm TDS) rather than try to build a fancy filtering system for my KLAudio cleaner, I just change the water after each cleaning session. Every now and then I clean out the reservoir with a towel as those suspended solids will eventually settle to the bottom.

Cleaning solutions just add surfactants, which make the water "wetter" and help release gook from the record, no different than dish soap releases stuck-on food. These will serve to create an emulsion holding the dirt/gook in suspension so it won't settle.
 
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maxbara

New Member
Mar 12, 2020
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Hello everybody from Italy, received a new degritter today, washed a record and is loosing water from the bottom, a lot of water, emptied the machine, dried it and recharged, washed another record, and pouring water again, and before you tell it, not from the filter, from the inside, I'm black..
Max
 

djsina2

Active Member
May 31, 2019
383
169
43
49
Hello everybody from Italy, received a new degritter today, washed a record and is loosing water from the bottom, a lot of water, emptied the machine, dried it and recharged, washed another record, and pouring water again, and before you tell it, not from the filter, from the inside, I'm black..
Max
And why would you not contact the manufacturer?
 

maxbara

New Member
Mar 12, 2020
5
0
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55
And why would you not contact the manufacturer?
who said that?
I contacted the manufacturer and they will send me a new unit, but hopefully when you buy a new item at this price it has to work, It's not an elctrical failure but a mechanical one, the one that QC should check before shipping..
 

djsina2

Active Member
May 31, 2019
383
169
43
49
who said that?
I contacted the manufacturer and they will send me a new unit, but hopefully when you buy a new item at this price it has to work, It's not an elctrical failure but a mechanical one, the one that QC should check before shipping..
Well your message was unclear. It sounded like you were asking for help. Seems like a connection possibly came loose in shipping. I’m quite positive they are tested before shipping.
 

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