Do different tape transports sound different?

[christensenleif@msn.com]

First of all
The reason I went for A80 instead of 820 is complexity of circuitry and switchmode supplies as opposed to all analogue and linear. Makes me less dependant of external support
Second I' ve gotten fantastic support from Todor Dimitrov of Mastertapesoundlab in Thessaloniki Greece to recap, change bearings and updating repro and recording audio electronics and powersupply. Steep learnibgcurve but very fulfilling to understand the concept of theese swiss precision beauties
Best
Leif

 

[NorthStar]

? Just for living on the good side of fun life ... R2R music ... mastering/taping/recording

• https://audiocirc.com/2012/04/08/the-talking-machines/

 

[Fred Thal]

Fred, Since most of these tape preamps are now 30 years or older,have you upgraded these and if so is the transport noise (distortion) still the most significant aspect of audible performance?

Hello Roger,

Optimum design and performance of the audio circuitry is certainly of enormous importance and restoration and/or updating of these electronics may indeed be required on older tape equipment, as you suggest.

Returning to the topic of this thread, many people imagine that the engineering departments of the best professional analog tape machine manufacturers were spending most of their budgets on developing improved audio circuitry. Not so. Most of those budgets were consumed in improving the transports and correspondingly, the time base accuracy of the machines. Why? Because it was understood that without that essential foundation, true high fidelity audio recording could never be achieved. (Please understand that I'm talking about only a small and elite group of the top-tier professional tape machine makers. Not the low-cost broadcast, consumer and prosumer tape machine market segment, which was some fifty times larger in terms of number of machines manufactured and sold.)

Focusing first on perfecting the transport's performance helps explain why ATAE builds the Model One (A820 based) and Model Two (A80 based) as fully modular component systems. By separating out the distinct functions of A, moving the tape, and B, performing the magnetic to electrical transduction for retrieving the audio signal, we are removing compromises inherent in all-in-one compact machine designs. Our approach also greatly improves future serviceability, which is an important consideration for the professional market.

While many will appreciate that it can be rewarding to own something as nicely crafted as an original Studer A80 or A820 tape machine, no one should be fooled into believing that it's going to sound anywhere near superb today if it has not been expertly reconditioned. Probably 99 percent of these now 30 or 40 year-old transports are definitely not meeting specification today. That means they are corrupting the sound quality. The Altair T2DS from Manquen (or other more modern instrumentation) can confirm this.

 

[RogerD]

Hello Roger,

Optimum design and performance of the audio circuitry is certainly of enormous importance and restoration and/or updating of these electronics may indeed be required on older tape equipment, as you suggest.

Returning to the topic of this thread, many people imagine that the engineering departments of the best professional analog tape machine manufacturers were spending most of their budgets on developing improved audio circuitry. Not so. Most of those budgets were consumed in improving the transports and correspondingly, the time base accuracy of the machines. Why? Because it was understood that without that essential foundation, true high fidelity audio recording could never be achieved. (Please understand that I'm talking about only a small and elite group of the top-tier professional tape machine makers. Not the low-cost broadcast, consumer and prosumer tape machine market segment, which was some fifty times larger in terms of number of machines manufactured and sold.)

Focusing first on perfecting the transport's performance helps explain why ATAE builds the Model One (A820 based) and Model Two (A80 based) as fully modular component systems. By separating out the distinct functions of A, moving the tape, and B, performing the magnetic to electrical transduction for retrieving the audio signal, we are removing compromises inherent in all-in-one compact machine designs. Our approach also greatly improves future serviceability, which is an important consideration for the professional market.

While many will appreciate that it can be rewarding to own something as nicely crafted as an original Studer A80 or A820 tape machine, no one should be fooled into believing that it's going to sound anywhere near superb today if it has not been expertly reconditioned. Probably 99 percent of these now 30 or 40 year-old transports are definitely not meeting specification today. That means they are corrupting the sound quality. The Altair T2DS from Manquen (or other more modern instrumentation) can confirm this.

Excellent...thank you Fred.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Following up on RogerD's preamp question, Fred, on your earlier ATAE machines, and on the ATAE machines for which you are seeking an investor or client what updates do you make to the stock audio electronics?

Or do you prefer to bypass the stock audio electronics with an outboard tape preamp?

Thank you.

 

[Fred Thal]

Hello Ron,

You and Roger are asking good questions and I appreciate your interest.

First, ATAE's product offerings have always been conceived and developed entirely for the pro market. More specifically, the people who own large (and sometimes immensely large!) archives of priceless, original master tapes. Mainly, I'm talking about the Big Three: Universal, Sony and Warner. As you may know, the Big Three haven't shown much interest. But that's another topic entirely.

Now, as to what tape playback amplifiers are included with a Model One or Two, this has always been optional. We let the customer decide. Not unlike some audiophiles, the people who are inside major recordings archives and record labels working hands-on every day with high-value master tapes, can be very opinionated and stubborn about what they prefer to use. So we give them choices.

Right now we have about five. Among those choices are indeed some mildly, or even extensively re-done classic Studer circuits, often constructed on original Studer factory circuit boards. And often with quite a few parts left out, or bypassed, or changed to something else. Here's an obvious example: why on earth would anyone want FET switching in the audio signal path to permit sync playback in a circuit intended for state-of-the-art playback of highest quality master tapes?

One area where the pro community and the audiophile community appear to be completely diverging is over adjustability to meet the standard playback eq curves. And I do not mean at just two or three points across the band. The top pros are looking at this in one-third, one-sixth or even one-twelfth octave resolution! If your box won't align flat (meaning within a quarter or half of a dB) to all the corresponding multifrequency or chromatic sweep MRL cal tapes, they will laugh you out the door.

One additional point I see too often glossed over when audiophiles talk tape playback electronics, is that you have to design the first stage for a known repro head. At minimum, you have to know the inductance to some degree of accuracy. There is also an optimum load impedance that the first stage must present to the repro head. So any box that says "connect (some unknown?) tape head here" is highly suspect of being totally disqualified from the start.

When I first started learning about designing high-quality tape playback electronics 35 years ago (and just as this was not my field of expertise then, neither is it now) I was very fortunate to have just really, really excellent mentors. Names you've heard of. What I learned from these great teachers was that there can be a awful lot to it. Analog audio circuit design is not trivial. So I continue to rely on only the very best analog circuit designers I can find. Ones who understand the demanding requirements imposed by the tape playback equalizations, and the best ways to get there.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

looks like a Cello/Mark Levinson design.....LNP sounds familiar.....
best
Leif

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hello Ron,

You and Roger are asking good questions and I appreciate your interest.

First, ATAE's product offerings have always been conceived and developed entirely for the pro market. More specifically, the people who own large (and sometimes immensely large!) archives of priceless, original master tapes. Mainly, I'm talking about the Big Three: Universal, Sony and Warner. As you may know, the Big Three haven't shown much interest. But that's another topic entirely.

Now, as to what tape playback amplifiers are included with a Model One or Two, this has always been optional. We let the customer decide. Not unlike some audiophiles, the people who are inside major recordings archives and record labels working hands-on every day with high-value master tapes, can be very opinionated and stubborn about what they prefer to use. So we give them choices.

Right now we have about five. Among those choices are indeed some mildly, or even extensively re-done classic Studer circuits, often constructed on original Studer factory circuit boards. And often with quite a few parts left out, or bypassed, or changed to something else. Here's an obvious example: why on earth would anyone want FET switching in the audio signal path to permit sync playback in a circuit intended for state-of-the-art playback of highest quality master tapes?

One area where the pro community and the audiophile community appear to be completely diverging is over adjustability to meet the standard playback eq curves. And I do not mean at just two or three points across the band. The top pros are looking at this in one-third, one-sixth or even one-twelfth octave resolution! If your box won't align flat (meaning within a quarter or half of a dB) to all the corresponding multifrequency or chromatic sweep MRL cal tapes, they will laugh you out the door.

One additional point I see too often glossed over when audiophiles talk tape playback electronics, is that you have to design the first stage for a known repro head. At minimum, you have to know the inductance to some degree of accuracy. There is also an optimum load impedance that the first stage must present to the repro head. So any box that says "connect (some unknown?) tape head here" is highly suspect of being totally disqualified from the start.

When I first started learning about designing high-quality tape playback electronics 35 years ago (and just as this was not my field of expertise then, neither is it now) I was very fortunate to have just really, really excellent mentors. Names you've heard of. What I learned from these great teachers was that there can be a awful lot to it. Analog audio circuit design is not trivial. So I continue to rely on only the very best analog circuit designers I can find. Ones who understand the demanding requirements imposed by the tape playback equalizations, and the best ways to get there.
View attachment 30111

Fred,

looks pretty nice.

how much for the ATAE repro circuit?

does it accept an RCA input from the A820 head block? or does it require some other interface?

 

[dminches]

Fred, fascinating stuff. Don't stop now!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Nice

 

[Fred Thal]

looks like a Cello/Mark Levinson design.....LNP sounds familiar.....

Correct. We had the MLAS LNP-2 very much in mind when designing the front panel. There is a real Cello P603 and P301 inside, which explains the high cost and the limited production.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

reminds me of hearing Chick Corea and Gayle Moran in Oslo...each of the 13 musicians/performers had his/her own ML LNP preamp with meter
remember ´the great sound and that we thought about the cost of that PA rigg
havent seen cost of this LNP mentioned yet?
best
Leif

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Correct. We had the MLAS LNP-2 very much in mind when designing the front panel. There is a real Cello P603 and P301 inside, which explains the high cost and the limited production.

is the external A80 psu on your web pages also Cello/ML based dedicated regulated audio psu?
best
Leif

 

[Fred Thal]

is the external A80 psu on your web pages also Cello/ML based dedicated regulated audio psu?
best
Leif

Hi Leif, please look for my answers to your LNP-3 questions in the LNP-3 thread.
(This thread was about transports.)

 

[c1ferrari]

Some people assume that the differences between different tape playback electronics will be much more readily audible than would be any differences between different transports. However the reverse is true.
View attachment 30080

Concur...absolutely. I've read/heard from pros whom I respect that how the tape travels past the head is the name of the game.

 

[c1ferrari]

An engineer working for the US professional tape machine manufacturer 3M must be credited with first calling attention to the need to accurately characterize the audible differences of tape transports. He also argued against the accepted belief of the time that scrape flutter was inaudible in music program. His name is Dale Manquen. He later worked for Ampex.

Manquen developed an instrument that allows one to both see on a meter and hear over a loudspeaker or headphones, the grunge (the unwanted AM and FM distortion) that is added to the audio signal by a tape transport. Those of us who have worked on tape transport design owe a great debt of gratitude to Dale Manquen.

I appreciate that I've learned more about Dale...thank you.