Does Everything Make a Difference?

[bonzo75]

So personally attack, and tell him “to get back in his silo.”

No, I just ignored.

 

[bonzo75]

In Belgian chocolate, Pierre Marcolini, Neuhaus are available in London - and don't like them.

In Belgium have tried Chocolate line by Dominique Persoone - a bit hifi like - fancy prices for not much. Dumon is decent, best was Spegelaere.

Next time will try Mary - Dcc recommended it

In chains I prefer more Laderache in Switzerland - the one in London is not as good. There was also another local chocolate shop in Zurich I forgot, was awesome. Don't like Sprungli.

Turrones Vicens from Spain is the most innovative and some of their stuff is the best - they do a lot of free samplings in the shop so you can easily find your taste.

 

[sbnx]

F

Footers were under my racks, not speakers. The “footers” (Herbie’s) were nothing more than furniture sliders with a metal disc glued to them so spikes would not punch through. Nothing fancy but I was shocked at the difference in musical presentation. This is not a disparagement of footers, or even Herbie’s footers. They did, in my system, have a profound sonic impact far greater than I think science might explain. (My racks start at about 135 lbs before adding any components.)

Ahhhh, OK. Yes I agree with you. I do not like anything "squishy".

 

[Analog Scott]

Other than being a huge fan of Gene and Amir apparently, who the heck are you?...

I feel no need or desire to explain myself to you.

You're some new guy (might as well be new since you've been a member for 7 years with only 34 posts) that came on here and all you do is argue EVERYONE'S point of view. That to me is a troll.



I will say this about the "sound of cables". If YOU can't hear a difference in cables, either your system is lacking, or your hearing is lacking... Probably both in your case.

Wash, rinse, repeat. If you are going to try to make it about insulting me rather than about audio at least try to be creative and original.
You left out several other cliches.
1. I just look at numbers and don’t listen to music.
2. I’m just jealous because I can’t afford high end cables.
3. I’ve never heard any real high end gear before.
YAWN….

 

[Analog Scott]

Where do I come up with my understanding of chemistry? I have a Ph.D in Analytical Chemistry, so I think I know quite well what the state of the art is with regard to deconvolution of natural products.

I did research next door to a lab at UC Riverside where they were doing analysis of natural oils with 2 dimensional Gas Chromatography. They would use orthogonal methods to take a cut in the analysis, trap it with a cold trap and then reinject this onto another column with different selectivity. A 5 second cut would have literally several thousand compounds...most of which they could not identify. It was like this through a whole 1 hour run...so you are talking about literally millions of compounds in something like olive oil.

My point is that you, as a non-expert, have no clue how complex natural products are and the sheer magnitude of trying to account for the number of compounds in such a product. Chemistry 101 my ass...many a Ph.D thesis has been written over this kind of stuff. It is not possible to make something this complex synthetically beyond using some main and some minor components to get "close' to the natural taste.

I live in Switzerland, so while I am not particularly familiar with your Belgian chocolate I am quite familiar with Swiss chocolate and what they put into their excellent chocolates, which is natural...not synthetic.

Yes, natural flavors vary wildly, this is why people are very selective in what they use and often employ organoleptic detection on things like gas Chromatography. This allows for consistency with trained humans but it doesn't mean they know everything that is going on in the natural product.

Expensive stuff rarely uses synthetic flavorings because they simply don't taste right.

Ingredients and origin (spruengli.ch)

Origin (laderach.com)
This is literally the best chocolate I have ever had. Only natural ingredients.

The interpretation of what we hear from reproduced music is equally as complex. There are all kinds of subtle and not-so subtle additions and subtractions to the signal before it reaches your ears. This is further compounded to how your ear/brain machinery interprets what it the sound is. This is why it is so hard to predict how something will sound based on looking at measurements. At best so far, there has been some correlation but it has a high variability.

Sorry not a fan of Laderach. Taste is a matter of taste. But that was quite the lecture. You sure told me a thing or two. I’m sure no one could ever fool your discerning and refined palette with artificial flavors. What did you say again? “They just don’t taste right”? It took me all of 30 seconds to find this at the Laderache website

“
Ingredients
Ingredients: Sugar, Cocoa Butter, Whole Milk Powder, Skimmed Milk Powder, Fructose, Blackberry Juice, Raspberry Juice, Raspberry Puree, Citric Acid, Artificial Flavors, Natural Flavor, SoyLecithin, Cocoa Powder.
Contains: Milk, Soy.”

Now apply this s to your lecture on audio

 

[marty]

Tinka, who is Dutch, said the same things. . . absurd to think that any chocolate in the USA could approach Belgian chocolate.

Until . . . she tried Li-Lac in Manhattan (especially the milk chocolate covered marshmallow bars and the hazelnut truffles). Li-Lac, starting from a small factory on Christopher Street in the West Village which they used to sell the chocolate out of, makes their chocolate fresh every day. So even if you buy it from one of their retail-only locations in Manhattan, the chocolate is never more than a couple of days old.

Tinka now believes Li-Lac is victorious.

I have to give Li-Lac a big thumbs up. The box you brought to us a few weeks ago brought much joy (and calories) to our guests in Mexico this week! They were singing your praises all week long.

 

[marty]

Next time will try Mary - Dcc recommended it

Spent an hour plus in Mary's. My Belgian friend is good buddies with their head chocolate master. I learned the most about chocolate in that shop tasting chocolate sourced from beans from all over the globe. (It was like a wine tasting at DRC). I am still surprised I didn't go into A fib that day after what was probably a world record for daily caffeine intake for me.

Back to our regular programming now....

 

[Analog Scott]

no he didn’t. he repeated the same thing that you can read here from ten or more years ago. And presented it with a eureka expression. If he wants to educate the rest of us, he needs to go out and learn first instead of do the Science says and Simon says…he doesn’t want to discuss. He wants to come across as smart without doing the ground work

I need to go out and learn first? Ok…I am interested in learning. What is it you think I need to learn that I am unfamiliar with?

As it stands the assertion that I need to learn is a bit overly broad and of little use. Do you have anything specific?

 

[Rexp]

The least surprising things in audio, and in life, is that we all have different tastes. My brother-in-law has that same reaction to peas. Yet, they are quite popular in many parts of the world.

So when you put your system together you were aiming for it to sound a certain way according to your taste rather than for it to sound realistic?

A bit like going to a Michelin starred restaurant with a bottle of ketchup in your pocket.

 

[Chops]

Wash, rinse, repeat. If you are going to try to make it about insulting me rather than about audio at least try to be creative and original.
You left out several other cliches.
1. I just look at numbers and don’t listen to music.
2. I’m just jealous because I can’t afford high end cables.
3. I’ve never heard any real high end gear before.
YAWN….

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't insult you. Unless of course me saying that you're a fan of Gene and Amir you take as an insult, then that's on you. You shouldn't be agreeing with them then. LOL

As for the rest of that nonsense in your reply... YAWN...

Not that you care, but you're about two clicks away from being put on my "Ignore" list. LOL

 

[Analog Scott]

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't insult you. Unless of course me saying that you're a fan of Gene and Amir you take as an insult, then that's on you. You shouldn't be agreeing with them then. LOL

As for the rest of that nonsense in your reply... YAWN...

Not that you care, but you're about two clicks away from being put on my "Ignore" list. LOL

I wasn’t putting words in your mouth I was merely making suggestions of other tired cliches over above the ones you dragged out.

I have had many a disagreement with Amir. If you can’t tell his take on audio from mine just pretend we are cables instead of actual audiophiles with a genuine interest in sound quality. Then we will sound quite different

Tribalism is counter productive and boring.

 

[Chops]

I wasn’t putting words in your mouth I was merely making suggestions of other tired cliches over above the ones you dragged out.

I have had many a disagreement with Amir. If you can’t tell his take on audio from mine just pretend we are cables instead of actual audiophiles with a genuine interest in sound quality. Then we will sound quite different

Tribalism is counter productive and boring.

As I said before, nonsense. LOL

 

[PYP]

So when you put your system together you were aiming for it to sound a certain way according to your taste rather than for it to sound realistic?

A bit like going to a Michelin starred restaurant with a bottle of ketchup in your pocket.

No, not at all (I'm not following what you mean). I like a lively and, to me, lifelike sound. A live event is the benchmark (whether amplified or not). But sound per se is not my goal. At some point, once the equipment/room is sorted, the music invites me in and I explore the music more deeply.

During improvisation, for example, why the musician chooses one path vs. another. Why one musician hangs back behind the beat and how that affects the other musicians. Why songs are in the order they are on an album. How music reflects the age and culture in which it was written. And how it lives on in other ages and other cultures.

My point is that what sounds realistic to me might not sound that way to you. We can only satisfy ourselves (and spouse, etc.); we can only satisfy our tastes. I therefore cannot simply project my preferences upon anyone else. I'm not offended when someone doesn't like the equipment I like. I never get upset when someone eats a different cereal than I do. I enjoy reading how different people have taken very different paths to reach their musical nirvana and continue to be surprised when they think that is the only path for everyone else.

I do like ketchup, however. But maybe not the brand you like.

 

[Rexp]

No, not at all (I'm not following what you mean). I like a lively and, to me, lifelike sound. A live event is the benchmark (whether amplified or not). But sound per se is not my goal. At some point, once the equipment/room is sorted, the music invites me in and I explore the music more deeply.

During improvisation, for example, why the musician chooses one path vs. another. Why one musician hangs back behind the beat and how that affects the other musicians. Why songs are in the order they are on an album. How music reflects the age and culture in which it was written. And how it lives on in other ages and other cultures.

My point is that what sounds realistic to me might not sound that way to you. We can only satisfy ourselves (and spouse, etc.); we can only satisfy our tastes. I therefore cannot simply project my preferences upon anyone else. I'm not offended when someone doesn't like the equipment I like. I never get upset when someone eats a different cereal than I do. I enjoy reading how different people have taken very different paths to reach their musical nirvana and continue to be surprised when they think that is the only path for everyone else.

I do like ketchup, however. But maybe not the brand you like.

If you and I went to a classical guitar concert and then heard a great recording of that concert, you don't think we would agree on whether the reproduction was realistic or not? We might disagree on the level of realism but would likely agree the reproduction was realistic if the system was good.

 

[Analog Scott]

If you and I went to a classical guitar concert and then heard a great recording of that concert, you don't think we would agree on whether the reproduction was realistic or not? We might disagree on the level of realism but would likely agree the reproduction was realistic if the system was good.

A fair question with a complicated answer. I’ll cut to the conclusion…maybe, maybe not.

 

[morricab]

That must have been fun. Back in the day in Manhattan, https://teuschernyc.com/ had some mind-blowing Swiss chocolate. A friend worked in one of the shops and would bring home samples. I'm not a big chocolate consumer, but the first one I tried knocked my eyes back in my head. Still trying to get that experience with my hifi. I know, I need a low-powered SET and horns. See, I do learn.

Teuscher is good chocolate…they have a couple shops here in Zurich.

 

[Tuckers]

OMG, its come to blows on chocolate now. Well, I am unfortunate (or maybe fortunate) that I am in the USA where excess hardness and hence more precise and prettier chocolates are preferred to sloppier more rich and melt in your mouth styles that Europe seems to prefer. Fortunate in that the harder shinier (stearic acid enriched) chocolate is more prevalent to chocolate that is less sharp formed and simply tastes better - keeps me thinner.

Analog Scott - following your posts, I've come to the conclusion that you have decided that certain measurement parameters are set in stone and that anyone that finds through their ears a sonic difference cannot be based in reality. I don't really understand why you are making such a fracas. You've obviously figured it all out. Why do you even need to darken our inferior doorsteps with your magnanimous brain? Go home you have already won. Those of us that reliably and consistently hear differences and have come to some consensus among peers are obviously not worth your time. If you care to open your mind beyond the strictures of your belief system, then stay. But don't just be poking barbs and superiority and expect those of us who have the direct evidence of our ears and peers to put up with it.

 

[morricab]

Sorry not a fan of Laderach. Taste is a matter of taste. But that was quite the lecture. You sure told me a thing or two. I’m sure no one could ever fool your discerning and refined palette with artificial flavors. What did you say again? “They just don’t taste right”? It took me all of 30 seconds to find this at the Laderache website

“
Ingredients
Ingredients: Sugar, Cocoa Butter, Whole Milk Powder, Skimmed Milk Powder, Fructose, Blackberry Juice, Raspberry Juice, Raspberry Puree, Citric Acid, Artificial Flavors, Natural Flavor, SoyLecithin, Cocoa Powder.
Contains: Milk, Soy.”

Now apply this s to your lecture on audio

Link to this piece of chocolate? You had to look very hard to find this if it is in fact even from Laederach.

I have looked at various types on the Laederach website:

Pralines assorted 30pcs heart box (laderach.com)
Pralines assorted 15pcs heart box (laderach.com)
FrischSchoggi Sticks Heartbox max (laderach.com)
FrischSchoggi Heart Caramel-Almond Dark (laderach.com)
Teddy Caramel & Fleur de Sel Dark (laderach.com)
Pralines Heart assorted 8pcs (laderach.com)
FrischSchoggi Strawberry Duo Dark (laderach.com)
FrischSchoggi pouch XL (laderach.com)
FrischSchoggi Blackberry Dark (laderach.com)
Tartufi assorted 35 pcs per box (laderach.com)
Greeting Heart "Happy Birthday" (laderach.com)
Snacking Florentine Milk (laderach.com)
Snacking Chocolate Nonpareil Dark (laderach.com)
Chocolate Napolitains Case (laderach.com)
Tablet Grand Cru Trinidad 80% – Single Origin (laderach.com)
Snacking Drops Marc de Champagne (laderach.com)
Snacking Orange Slizes (laderach.com)
Truffle Selection 36 pcs per box (laderach.com)

All of these are only with natural flavorings and you can taste the quality.

 

[Analog Scott]

Analog Scott - following your posts, I've come to the conclusion that you have decided that certain measurement parameters are set in stone and that anyone that finds through their ears a sonic difference cannot be based in reality.

You have come to an erroneous conclusion. I don’t think any measurement parameters are “set in stone” Everything is falsifiable and subject to more, newer and better verifiable repeatable evidence. That includes established thresholds of human hearing. But it requires newer and/or better verifiable repeatable evidence.

I am open to any claims of what some can hear but I have standards of verifiability and repeatability of those claims to believe them at face value.

Do you think it is unreasonable to have standards of evidence or do you think any and every claim has equal merit, equal veracity and should be accepted at face value without scrutiny?

To illustrate the point I am trying to make using this obvious and extreme examples, if I told you I could hear the winds on the face of Jupiter or the foot steps of an ant walking in the rain forest in South America from here in China would you accept those claims just on my word alone?

 

[bonzo75]

Laderach is amazing, their rum chocolates are great, as are some of those broken frischoggi sticks