Done with digital

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
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Alpharetta, Georgia
I’ll share my (longish) thoughts on this endless analog vs. digital question. I’ve been buying digital recordings for 37 years (first CD bought in 1985!), and have bought vinyl all the way through these years as well. I have owned countless DACs and transports over the past 37 years, from Theta Digital to dCS and Esoteric to now the Lampizator Pacific. Digital has come a long way towards sounding more like analog. The old threadbare sound of early digital has greatly reduced on todays best DACs. The Lampizator Pacific is truly state of the art. But the gap has not been closed. Not by a long shot.

The very best sound I get at my house is on a restored Garrard 301 turntable with an SME 312S arm with a Miyajima Infinity Zero mono cartridge. Yes, mono! If you want to hear vinyl at its very very best, mono is the way to go. Forget silly stereo! As the great violinist Jascha Heifetz put it, forget “high phooey and hystereo”. If you want to hear The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Ella Fitzgerald, Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, John Coltrane, Duke Ellington, and literally thousands of the greatest singers, musicians and performers from 1930s-1960s, the golden age of recorded music, vinyl is it and mono tops stereo by a country mile in my house. Once you hear John Coltrane’s throbbing sax shimmering in absolute three dimensional mono sound, or the huge explosive dynamics of the original recordings of The Beatles in true mono, or Bob Dylan’s gravelly voice in beautiful mono, you can forget about stereo versions, all of which sound cartoonish in my system in comparison. Bob Dylan absolutely hated the stereo versions of his recordings, which sound grotesque to my ears, harmonica in one channel, his voice in another, guitar somewhere in one or the other, sometimes the engineer forgets to pan the sound, so instruments change from one channel to other. What a joke!

Just imagine Bon Dylan, the only rock and roll musician to win the Nobel Prize in literature, singing in front of you, his guitar in front of him and his trademark harmonica dangling from his mouth. Where’s the “stereo” here? The Beatles also absolutely hated the stereo versions of their legendary albums. They personally supervised the mono mastering, which has explosive dynamics. The fake stereo versions were done by some flunkey and they never cared for it. It’s a throttled version of their original sound.

if you’ve never heard a true mono cartridge, you’d be amazed. Surface noise is almost completely banished, thanks to the cartridge only responding to lateral groove modulation. Even beaten up 70 year old records from the 1950s sound fabulous on my Miyajima Infinity Zero cartridge, the world‘s best mono cartridge. Forget audiophile nonsense. Buy mono albums, the earlier the pressing, the better. The original Ella Fitzgerald mono recordings of the great American songbooks are the ones to get. Even the Time Life Jazz classics featuring the greatest jazz performers from the 1920s to 1940s, many sourced from 78 rpm masters, sound fabulous. Yes, there some unavoidable noise in the earliest masters, but your ears tune this out in a few seconds. The Miyajima cartridge is a beast, probably twice as big as any other cartridge. Weighs a lot too, so you need a massive arm. But, boy, does it blow the Lampizator Pacific away.

I enjoy streaming music on Roon as much as any of you, and the convenience of listening to many new classical high resolution albums of music I don’t own. But when I want to have a true spiritual experience, like listening to Frank Sinatra singing his heart out on “Only the Lonely”, or Ella Fitzgerald great songbooks or Johnny Cash or Elvis Presley or heck, even The Beach Boys great album Animal Sounds, the recording that so captivated The Beatles (Paul McCartney called it the greatest rock and roll album of all time), I turn to vinyl in true mono. That remains for me personally the closest approach to the original sound (as Quad’s Peter Walker used to say). Stereo is a gimmick and surround sound an even worse gimmick. Every time I hear a piano recording with the mike thrust inside the instrument painting a ridiculous sonic image, I wonder if these recording engineers have ever hear a piano in a concert hall. The piano is placed sideways and you hear the sound in, you guessed it, mono! There’s no stereo sound from a piano when you’re sitting hundreds of feet away looking at the piano sideways.

I could give a long geeky argument on why digital PCM is inherently flawed, but that would require math. Don’t get fooled by the specs you see reported, that’s a lot of malarkey. When you record an oboe in an orchestra, ask yourself how many bits of resolution do you have to work with? Remember you cannot overload in digital. If you start with 16 bits, as many recordings over the past 30 years have done, you have to give some slack and you loose a couple of bits of headroom. The orchestra playing full tilt has to be captured in 14 bits or so. Ok, now consider a solitary oboe playing. That’s 50 dB down in volume from the full orchestra. How many bits do you have left? Roughly 6 bits of resolution to capture the oboe. No wonder my 5000 odd CDs I have, 80% classical, have not impressed me with the sound of the oboe I hear in the concert hall.

Digital PCM is linear. Human hearing is nonlinear and adaptive. As the sound reduces, we turn up our aural resolution, so to speak. It turns out that at our most sensitive frequency zone, we can hear sounds that move the eardrum by less than the width of a hydrogen atom! Human hearing is a true wonder of biology. As the decibel level increases, our ears automatically compress the sound to prevent long term hearing damage (otherwise the first jackhammer drill you heard at 120 dB on the street passing by would have left you permanently deaf). For a true revolution in digital, we have to throw away linear PCM and start over, paying close attention to how nonlinear human hearing actually works, focusing on the region we are most sensitive and not wasting bits where we are deaf (e.g., 40 kHZ!). But I don‘t hold out hope that this will happen in my lifetime.
This is a terrific post that brings up a lot of good discussion. I believe digital does have a challenge over AAA in that the ADC-DAC two step conversion is extremely hard to do with no ill effects.

That said, I don’t believe that reference digital is tha far off from reference analog. I favor analog, LP or a good tape, but when I visited Jacob’s house to hear the Vivaldi stack and TechDAS Air Force Zero, I was surprised how good the Vivaldi was. On Jacob’s WAMM/Dartzeel system, both produced very lifelike sound. Based on recent conversations, the new APEX Vivaldi is a big step up even over what I heard.

Likewise, listening at Hugh’s amazing Gryphon system using an MSB Select 2 provides a very musical and resolving playback that is immensely satisfying to hear. It’s hard to keep your feet from moving at Hugh’s music barn.

I feel it may be best to be like Switzerland in the format wars these days. It seems now that even a well-recorded and mastered 16/44 file can be astonishingly satisfying to listen to. I do believe each format is capable of really outstanding sound these days.
 
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rDin

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Oct 28, 2019
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For a true revolution in digital, we have to throw away linear PCM and start over, paying close attention to how nonlinear human hearing actually works.
This has been my conclusion for some time now. A paradigm shift is needed.
 

Jeffy

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2014
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Orchard Lake, MI
Yes early stereo was bad image if any was far left and far right. Once corrected by early 60’s there’s no way I rather listen to mono. Stereo was a huge step up I’m my opinion.
 
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rando

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Sep 22, 2019
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That is a good question. I do question why I am annoyed. Perhaps it has to do with the lack of progress in the discussion which contributors (including me) recycle familiar ideas. Another may have to do with the fact that, in this maturing age of information, newbies do not seem to take advantage of Internet archives to answer their basic questions as well as the more philosophical and psychophysical issues.

Computer Audiophile X.oxo v. MQA²
;)
 

bryans

VIP/Donor
Dec 26, 2017
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And we wonder why this hobby has been on the decline. Whatever format you like is great. Trying to tell others what they should like it just crazy. If the OP is done with digital more power to them. Not going to change my personal listening one bit. I love my Vinyl setup just as much as I love my digital setup.
 

Kingrex

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Feb 3, 2019
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See for me it's not complicated because I don't fall into all of the modem change, LPS, switches, standing on one leg etc. If one is into that then great for them. In the end it comes down to one's perspective.

If someone believes that using an "Audiophile" switch makes their soundstage wider and the music more "Analog" go for it. I'm sure when the next version of that switch comes out we will hear how much more Analog and wider the soundstage has become. And if this is the case I say good for them.
Just because some people choose to optimize their streaming performance does not mean they fall into an upgrade trap. I put a Linear Solution switch in years ago. It was was better than a stock netgear. I haven't touched it. I put LPS on my modem and router. Those benefited. I have not touched them. I did plug all 3 of those into a Triplite 500watt isolation transformer. Again it got better so I left it alone. I did add a 4.5 KVA Torus transformer to my electrical service and I compared the modem, router, switch plunged into the Torus or Triplite. The Torus was much better so I did change the source power there.

My point it, great digital is many small parts to make a whole. But once you have addressed the basics and its working as best as it's going to be able to, leave it alone and enjoy it. But I do advocate taking the time to optimize the chain to get the most from your equipment.
 

wil

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Jul 22, 2015
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Yes early stereo was bad image if any was far left and far right. Once corrected by early 60’s there’s no way I rather listen to mono. Stereo was a huge step up I’m my opinion.
Yes, a straw man argument If I’ve ever heard one!
 

bryans

VIP/Donor
Dec 26, 2017
920
876
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Just because some people choose to optimize their streaming performance does not mean they fall into an upgrade trap. I put a Linear Solution switch in years ago. It was was better than a stock netgear. I haven't touched it. I put LPS on my modem and router. Those benefited. I have not touched them. I did plug all 3 of those into a Triplite 500watt isolation transformer. Again it got better so I left it alone. I did add a 4.5 KVA Torus transformer to my electrical service and I compared the modem, router, switch plunged into the Torus or Triplite. The Torus was much better so I did change the source power there.

My point it, great digital is many small parts to make a whole. But once you have addressed the basics and its working as best as it's going to be able to, leave it alone and enjoy it. But I do advocate taking the time to optimize the chain to get the most from your equipment.
If you adding/changing/modifying your gear brings you enjoyment that is great. Nothing wrong with that. You should continue to do this. When you replaced your Netgear switch with the Linear Solution if it made a difference to you that is awesome.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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I’ll share my (longish) thoughts on this endless analog vs. digital question. I’ve been buying digital recordings for 37 years (first CD bought in 1985!), and have bought vinyl all the way through these years as well. I have owned countless DACs and transports over the past 37 years, from Theta Digital to dCS and Esoteric to now the Lampizator Pacific. Digital has come a long way towards sounding more like analog. The old threadbare sound of early digital has greatly reduced on todays best DACs. The Lampizator Pacific is truly state of the art. But the gap has not been closed. Not by a long shot.

The very best sound I get at my house is on a restored Garrard 301 turntable with an SME 312S arm with a Miyajima Infinity Zero mono cartridge. Yes, mono! If you want to hear vinyl at its very very best, mono is the way to go. Forget silly stereo! As the great violinist Jascha Heifetz put it, forget “high phooey and hystereo”. If you want to hear The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Ella Fitzgerald, Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, John Coltrane, Duke Ellington, and literally thousands of the greatest singers, musicians and performers from 1930s-1960s, the golden age of recorded music, vinyl is it and mono tops stereo by a country mile in my house. Once you hear John Coltrane’s throbbing sax shimmering in absolute three dimensional mono sound, or the huge explosive dynamics of the original recordings of The Beatles in true mono, or Bob Dylan’s gravelly voice in beautiful mono, you can forget about stereo versions, all of which sound cartoonish in my system in comparison. Bob Dylan absolutely hated the stereo versions of his recordings, which sound grotesque to my ears, harmonica in one channel, his voice in another, guitar somewhere in one or the other, sometimes the engineer forgets to pan the sound, so instruments change from one channel to other. What a joke!

Just imagine Bon Dylan, the only rock and roll musician to win the Nobel Prize in literature, singing in front of you, his guitar in front of him and his trademark harmonica dangling from his mouth. Where’s the “stereo” here? The Beatles also absolutely hated the stereo versions of their legendary albums. They personally supervised the mono mastering, which has explosive dynamics. The fake stereo versions were done by some flunkey and they never cared for it. It’s a throttled version of their original sound.

if you’ve never heard a true mono cartridge, you’d be amazed. Surface noise is almost completely banished, thanks to the cartridge only responding to lateral groove modulation. Even beaten up 70 year old records from the 1950s sound fabulous on my Miyajima Infinity Zero cartridge, the world‘s best mono cartridge. Forget audiophile nonsense. Buy mono albums, the earlier the pressing, the better. The original Ella Fitzgerald mono recordings of the great American songbooks are the ones to get. Even the Time Life Jazz classics featuring the greatest jazz performers from the 1920s to 1940s, many sourced from 78 rpm masters, sound fabulous. Yes, there some unavoidable noise in the earliest masters, but your ears tune this out in a few seconds. The Miyajima cartridge is a beast, probably twice as big as any other cartridge. Weighs a lot too, so you need a massive arm. But, boy, does it blow the Lampizator Pacific away.

I enjoy streaming music on Roon as much as any of you, and the convenience of listening to many new classical high resolution albums of music I don’t own. But when I want to have a true spiritual experience, like listening to Frank Sinatra singing his heart out on “Only the Lonely”, or Ella Fitzgerald great songbooks or Johnny Cash or Elvis Presley or heck, even The Beach Boys great album Animal Sounds, the recording that so captivated The Beatles (Paul McCartney called it the greatest rock and roll album of all time), I turn to vinyl in true mono. That remains for me personally the closest approach to the original sound (as Quad’s Peter Walker used to say). Stereo is a gimmick and surround sound an even worse gimmick. Every time I hear a piano recording with the mike thrust inside the instrument painting a ridiculous sonic image, I wonder if these recording engineers have ever hear a piano in a concert hall. The piano is placed sideways and you hear the sound in, you guessed it, mono! There’s no stereo sound from a piano when you’re sitting hundreds of feet away looking at the piano sideways.

I could give a long geeky argument on why digital PCM is inherently flawed, but that would require math. Don’t get fooled by the specs you see reported, that’s a lot of malarkey. When you record an oboe in an orchestra, ask yourself how many bits of resolution do you have to work with? Remember you cannot overload in digital. If you start with 16 bits, as many recordings over the past 30 years have done, you have to give some slack and you loose a couple of bits of headroom. The orchestra playing full tilt has to be captured in 14 bits or so. Ok, now consider a solitary oboe playing. That’s 50 dB down in volume from the full orchestra. How many bits do you have left? Roughly 6 bits of resolution to capture the oboe. No wonder my 5000 odd CDs I have, 80% classical, have not impressed me with the sound of the oboe I hear in the concert hall.

Digital PCM is linear. Human hearing is nonlinear and adaptive. As the sound reduces, we turn up our aural resolution, so to speak. It turns out that at our most sensitive frequency zone, we can hear sounds that move the eardrum by less than the width of a hydrogen atom! Human hearing is a true wonder of biology. As the decibel level increases, our ears automatically compress the sound to prevent long term hearing damage (otherwise the first jackhammer drill you heard at 120 dB on the street passing by would have left you permanently deaf). For a true revolution in digital, we have to throw away linear PCM and start over, paying close attention to how nonlinear human hearing actually works, focusing on the region we are most sensitive and not wasting bits where we are deaf (e.g., 40 kHZ!). But I don‘t hold out hope that this will happen in my lifetime.

Nice text, but although we should respect the subjective findings and opinions of people, IMHO it is extremely biased and innacurate. What is really meant by "wasting bits in where we are deaf" ? Are they needed elsewhere? It would be nice if the basics of PCM and digital quantization were well understood before writing such comments. In the PCM system every time we add a bit we add 6 dB - jumps in performance along the years were real. LPCM (linear pulse code modulation) relates to how the signal is quantified.

And again debating 1980 digital is misleading. We are in 2022! Surely CODEC's for bit compression use data taken from knowledge of how the ear listens, but audiophiles do not listen to compressed data.

Nice you refer to Peter Walker - his fabulous ESL63 speakers sound great with digital.
 

Kingrex

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Feb 3, 2019
2,937
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Forum threads and relationships I have made in the audio community with people that know more than me have shown me that as pertains to digital playback, and really all playback, but we are talking digital here, that attention to detail in certain area always pay positive dividends. Threads on digital accessories over the years have shown that fairly universally, optimizing the data infrastructure leads to better digital playback. Opting to not optimize these area is just fine. But I am very confident, a switch designed for audio, even a basic Etherregen will reduce jitter and error reaulting in better playback.

I do agree there are plenty of devices that may just change the sound. Maybe in a way you like or do not like. Gigafoil and other erhernet filters for example. I took a gigafoil to 2 peoples homes, and heard how it made the sound more "hifi". I took it home and listened more critically in my system. I no longer use it.

Lack of attention to detail in the power supply and data infrastructure is one of the reasons the average forum contributors observations may not be that accurate. Someone may try a streamer and say its not that good. But he feed it a poor digital signal created by bad grounding, old modems, cheap switches, electrical power with RF polution and so on. The results would be far different than those achieved by a listener that looked at the whole of the infrastructure, data and 120 volt power, and adhered to basic best practice guidelines. I call it a "Foundation". If its off, the rest of the house will lean, drywall will crack, windows will jamb. If you want the best audio playback the equipment you have on hand can provide, you need to apply your power and data in a very specific way. This is not an area where you can go about it this way or that way and end up at the same place.

This is why people start threads saying they are done with digital. They plopped a server and DAC on a shelf, turned it on, were disappointed and cried to the world, digital is harsh, threadbare and unpleasant. They did not take the time to do the supporting work. They didn't lay a foundation. They put their house on the bare earth and wonder why its moldy and heaves in the summer and winter.
 

stehno

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Jul 5, 2014
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Salem, OR
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I am done with digital. After having suffered thru every digital format available over the years, and never liking the sound of any of it, I am putting all my time, money and effort into my analog front-ends (turntable and tapedeck).
When I read such comments, about the only thing that comes to my mind is that you and perhaps others like you are barking up the wrong tree or focusing on the wrong areas when seeking significant improvements from their playback systems.

All the superior digital formats matter very little in many cases. Likewise, the analog vs digital controversy matters very little as well. Simply because it really matters very little what we have on hand. What really matters is, what we do with what we have that makes all the difference in the world.

Al M said earlier that he suspects those who turn away from digital haven't really explored all reasonable potentials to extract the most from digital. And he's right on the money. Then again, the exact same can also be said about analog.

I've avoided analog vs digital debates because like many topics, they seemingly go nowhere no matter how many times that horse has been beaten to death. Nevertheless, I've heard a few (as in not many) outstanding analog-based systems but even those few seem to have their musical limitations.

For example. I've yet to hear any analog system approach this level of musicality with a robust, complex, even torturous music piece such as this below, especially when played back near or at live music volume levels and with this level of clarity e.g. seemingly no breakup or flattening out. Not saying it's impossible to achieve with analog but I'd love to hear any analog-based system match / exceed the level of musicality and clarity of this piece and at this volume that I'm able to achieve with my lowly off-the-shelf digital OPPO 105D.. But I'm not holding my breath.


How many of you have a similar story to tell?
I'd venture too many. But that's probably because the emphasis on significant performance gains is misguided or misdirected, IMO.

Long live PCM as it is indeed a perfect (enough) sound forever format. Even for the most discriminating enthusiast. :)
 

Rt66indierock

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Jul 1, 2022
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Computer Audiophile X.oxo v. MQA²
;)
We will stay after MQA until the company is liquidated then we will work on other projects.
 

Kal Rubinson

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May 4, 2010
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I more than suspect you got the exact message even without fully grasping the ironic way it was conveyed.

Version number X.oxo (X0X0 for hugs and kisses ?)
I get neither the meaning, the exact message nor the irony. Sorry.
We will stay after MQA until the company is liquidated then we will work on other projects.
Fine but its relevance here is not apparent.
 
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Rt66indierock

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There isn’t an economic incentive to even work on another digital format.
This has been my conclusion for some time now. A paradigm shift is needed.
There isn’t an economic incentive to even work on another digital format.
 
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Rt66indierock

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I get neither the meaning, the exact message nor the irony. Sorry.

Fine but its relevance here is not apparent.

So back on topic. The format and quality of equipment doesn’t impact how recorded music impacts you emotionally. In my case the best experience is an 8-Track in the seventies. Listening to All-American Music by Jimmy Dale and The Flatlanders was transformative. Second was listening to KPIG in the southern stick driving up Highway 1 in my kids Honda Civic. This year my best musical experience is Neil Young’s Ordinary People on Sirius XM commuting to my office. If the equipment matters too much maybe, you can’t hear the music.
 

Kal Rubinson

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May 4, 2010
2,362
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www.stereophile.com
So back on topic. The format and quality of equipment doesn’t impact how recorded music impacts you emotionally. In my case the best experience is an 8-Track in the seventies. Listening to All-American Music by Jimmy Dale and The Flatlanders was transformative. Second was listening to KPIG in the southern stick driving up Highway 1 in my kids Honda Civic. This year my best musical experience is Neil Young’s Ordinary People on Sirius XM commuting to my office. If the equipment matters too much maybe, you can’t hear the music.
I get that and agree (although my examples would be quite different).
 

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