EMI/RFI/Noise Testing of Power Conditioners and Power Cables

[Gladiator]

1kmv range would be a lot.

This is interesting, wil! So maybe high EMI noise such as that detected by the EM100 doesn't translate into untoward and problematic sonic effects on the sound coming out of our stereos? Is worrying about high EMI readings just audiophile nervosa?

On the other hand it seems to me that a high ambient EMI environment couldn't be doing anything good for the sound coming out of our stereos . . .

It would be interesting if some of our equi-tech, Torus, Audioquest Niagra, Shunyata, Entrec, Tripoint, etc., owners here played around with an EM100 and reported the results.

A few months ago, I took on the task of trying to get my EMI noise down to the low teens or single digits. I discovered that my PS Audio P10 was "noisy", and my P5 was even "nosier". The Torus AVR was "noisy" and the Torus MAX and BIT-15 even "noisier". ..... BUT... when I powered a PS Audio Duet or Quintet via any outlet, the noise levels on the EM100 dropped significantly. (Not on the Duet itself but on the device that powered the PS Audio Duet)...........And just for reference purposes... My wall outlets always linger in the 28-30 range. All the other devices listed above ranged from 35-72.
Deploying 4 PS audio Duets and 1 Quintet all throughout the Wall, P10, P5, TOT & BIT-15, I was able to get readings in the 9-18 range on the EM100. I also observed the same behavior when I tested a TOPAZ Isolation transformer. The EM100 Noise meter was in the 300-400 range when powered by the Topaz. With only one PS Audio Duet plugged into the Topaz the readings dropped to the 30-40's. With a Quintet powered by the Topaz the readings dropped to the 20-30's.

Adding the PS Audio Duets (or Quintet) helped lower the EMI Noise readings on the EM100... This was appealing in the beginning but not in the long run. Something was off. I attempted to remedy the situation by reducing the number of Powered PS Audio Duets in the chain. But, In the end I chose to quit chasing the low EMI readings. Currently, only the Torus Transformers run my 2 channel system and I smile from ear to ear every time I sit for a session, something I never did with the low EMI readings. I often wonder if the initial appeal I experienced was mental. Maybe knowing that I had rid my system of EMI noise using the EM100 might have triggered a satisfaction marker in my head. Does EMI noise translate to anything audible? good or bad......Give it a try, YMMV.

 

[Ron Resnick]

A few months ago, I took on the task of trying to get my EMI noise down to the low teens or single digits. I discovered that my PS Audio P10 was "noisy", and my P5 was even "nosier". The Torus AVR was "noisy" and the Torus MAX and BIT-15 even "noisier". ..... BUT... when I powered a PS Audio Duet or Quintet via any outlet, the noise levels on the EM100 dropped significantly. (Not on the Duet itself but on the device that powered the PS Audio Duet)...........And just for reference purposes... My wall outlets always linger in the 28-30 range. All the other devices listed above ranged from 35-72.
Deploying 4 PS audio Duets and 1 Quintet all throughout the Wall, P10, P5, TOT & BIT-15, I was able to get readings in the 9-18 range on the EM100. I also observed the same behavior when I tested a TOPAZ Isolation transformer. The EM100 Noise meter was in the 300-400 range when powered by the Topaz. With only one PS Audio Duet plugged into the Topaz the readings dropped to the 30-40's. With a Quintet powered by the Topaz the readings dropped to the 20-30's.

Adding the PS Audio Duets (or Quintet) helped lower the EMI Noise readings on the EM100... This was appealing in the beginning but not in the long run. Something was off. I attempted to remedy the situation by reducing the number of Powered PS Audio Duets in the chain. But, In the end I chose to quit chasing the low EMI readings. Currently, only the Torus Transformers run my 2 channel system and I smile from ear to ear every time I sit for a session, something I never did with the low EMI readings. I often wonder if the initial appeal I experienced was mental. Maybe knowing that I had rid my system of EMI noise using the EM100 might have triggered a satisfaction marker in my head. Does EMI noise translate to anything audible? good or bad......Give it a try, YMMV.

Thank you very much for telling us about your experience on this!

 

[sbo6]

Let me try an analogy here…

I can make your race car vibrate less… by detuning and making it less of a race car. But if I know what I am doing and understand the car, I can reduce vibrations without sacrificing the point of the car.

Power conditioning is like that. A simple measurement tells you nothing about sound.

One of the most underrated statements in the plethora of statements on this and any forum (applies to any gear). Congrats mi amigo.

 

[pashkaam]

I have vintage active speakers with a class AB amplifier, installed the smallest EMI filters, that small filter are with the input socket, chip one .Everything changed, 3D stereo stage, low frequencies appeared, black background., it's too long to list, everything is more musical and smoother and all this is due to a cheap single-stage small EMI filter. One thing, but it works on two phases .
I switched the amplifiers to 230V and dropped two phases instead of phase and neutral. This also gives a good increase in meat.

 

[Zeotrope]

Hi Al,

Why did you choose a regenerator over an isolation transformer (or balanced power + isolation transformer)?

I have very sensitive (~105dB) speakers such that I can hear even small amounts noise as background hiss at the listening position.

I switched from PS Audio’s P20 (and P5 and PPP before that) to Shunyata Denali/Typhon/Altaira for the simple reason that the P20 was adding noise to my system. In turns out that the act of regenerating the AC signal adds noise. Maybe you have less noise than you started with, but the the P20 is definitely generating noise. It also puts noise out back into the AC lines.

The Shunyata gear lowers noise for both connected components and upstream/downstream components.
You’ll note that PS Audio’s marketing is perhaps unremarkably absent when it comes to this topic!

In cases where AC voltage is far from spec (but even here the regenerators are limited in how much voltage they can add), or THD is really high, the PS A regenerators may be better than passive filters; but otherwise, I think a passive filter is better.

When I measure my AC line with a device similar to what Ron started the thread with, it goes from 100 to 0 (probably below 0) with the Shunyata Defender and Denali.

 

[Ron Resnick]

When I measure my AC line with a device similar to what Ron started the thread with, it goes from 100 to 0 (probably below 0) with the Shunyata Defender and Denali.

That's very impressive! (I don't hear noise in my system, fortunately. But all of the Lutron RF dimmers and stuff in my house light up that RFI device like I'm standing next to a FM broadcasting station!)

 

[craigr]

I used a similar device on a dedicated 20A circuit. Not only was the noise "hi" on the meter, but at times I could hear (I assume cell phone) conversations. I got a Shunyata Everest. The EMI from the Everest's outlets measured 0.

 

[Zeotrope]

That's very impressive! (I don't hear noise in my system, fortunately. But all of the Lutron RF dimmers and stuff in my house light up that RFI device like I'm standing next to a FM broadcasting station!)

If the lights on these dimmers are off, is noise still generated?
I have some digital Lutron dimmers, but they are off when I’m listening.
I need to unplug the Christmas lights which are on remote controls…!

 

[Ron Resnick]

If the lights on these dimmers are off, is noise still generated?

Yes. But I'm not going to bother to mitigate RFI I don't hear through the speakers.

 

[sbnx]

Here are two videos that you might find interesting. This guy plays around with all kinds of stuff. In the first video he uses a simple line detector to show how to find noisy stuff in your HiFi. In the secon video he shows just how noisy dimmer switches are. There is also another video of his where he plays with a few RasberryPI to show the effects of shielding and grounding on noise.

 

[Zeotrope]

In my case, I think the audible hiss (which is very minor but still audible at the listening position) is coming from the 10m long XLR cable, and because my horns are ~105dB sensitive.
I am using a “low noise” Mogami 2534 quad XLR for now, until the Luna Noir arrives. The Noir has multiple conductors, including pure silver, as well as better shielding. Hopefully, this will help.

Mogami 2534

• Conductor insulation is XLPE ( Cross-Linked Polyethylene)
• Served (spiral) Bare Copper Shield
• Each conductor is 2 twisted copper 24AWG OFC copper (stranded)

Luna Noir

• Conductor insulation is cotton and oil (this works VERY well with my Duelund speaker/crossover cables, and is used by Nagra, and others, internally).
• Each conductor employs 3x 22AWG waxed tinned copper (using tinned copper in my Duelund CAST caps and crossover wiring) and 2x 26AWG solid silver conductors
• Neutral uses 3x 22AWG
• Shielding is tinned copper with an additional copper insulator

Hopefully the Noir will reduce noise further.

BTW, if anyone is curious about how cables sound, replace your main interconnect with a low cost but well made, such as Mogami, cable. OMG - the life/musicality is gone! The system has gone from incredible to sterile and boring. If you only hear it with the low cost cables, you wouldn’t know what you are missing.

 

[Zeotrope]

I managed to reduce background noise to essentially inaudible levels at the listening position, although it may still vary day by day due to EMI and AC grid changes, we will see.

What I did to reduce essentially all background noise was methodically turn off components in adjacent rooms and in the media room. In the end I found that the noise was cumulative, with each component adding a small, almost undistinguishable amount of background noise; but taken together, it made a difference.
The offenders were:
• LED lamp - made in Italy by FLO - not cheap! The lamp is normally off, but it has an LED indicator that is always on and the PSU is quite bulky.
• Kasa Wi-Fi controlled “smart” outlet, Ring WifI “extender” on an Amazon outlet extension box - this was not on the same circuit but in an adjacent room
• XLR interconnect to one monobloc that was passing close by a stack of 5 PSUs

(I posted this in the Schnerzinger thread too, but though it may be useful here.)