Entreq Tellus grounding,in england

[BE718]

Yes, it's a question I've asked him many times but so far no details

What interests me is this:
The claim was made by him that if these devices change the sound of a system, then that system is effectively broken - has grounding issues.
The flip side of this claim is that if these devices don't change the sound of your system, then your system is masking audible differences.

I've seen this before where DACs use ASRCs in their input circuitry. Some people really like the sound of these & claim that all the inputs (USB, SPDIF, optical) of their DAC sound the same. I've heard these ASRCs & when they can be bypassed one can hear the audible improvement & different inputs sound different. Auditory perception is a tricky business & one has to be careful in not hearing according to your expectations

Whichever BE system turns out to be - a system that is optimally designed such that the Intona or Regen (& according to him the Entreq will follow suit) make no audible difference or his system is masking any audible differences of these devices - whichever it turns out to be, it will be educational

Yep youve got it JK. Of course the systems grounding regime is deficient if this device is necessary to reduce noise.

 

[amirm]

It strikes me as a bit rich BE for you to criticise PO for not disclosing more technical details, for reasons that seem to me to be entirely understandable, while you remain resolutely coy about the details of your system and how you achieve the results you have posted.

We are not here debating if we should or should not buy BE's system. So let's not focus on that.

 

[amirm]

Did this comparison earlier but my PC hung and lost the work . So here it is again showing just the silence section:

As we see there is some reduction in the peaks with Entreq.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Amir,

I am really impressed with the quality and clarity of your graphs. Do you mind me asking what software you use please?

Elsdude,

I took the first 480,000 silent samples and did a composite FFT of that.

As a general comment only, obviously my results are modest but we are talking about modest gear and the most basic $200 US box. I don't think I would be the only person curious to see what would happen with a balanced, high quality setup and the expensive boxes.

Actually, I'd like to see this sort of stuff done on lots of these components aimed at either improving noise floors and / or power. I am a bit surprised that making recordings from DAC outputs seems to be so uncommon. StereoPlay did it in Germany with an extensive cable test but I have seen little else.

 

[BE718]

Amir,

I am really impressed with the quality and clarity of your graphs. Do you mind me asking what software you use please?

Elsdude,

I took the first 480,000 silent samples and did a composite FFT of that.

As a general comment only, obviously my results are modest but we are talking about modest gear and the most basic $200 US box. I don't think I would be the only person curious to see what would happen with a balanced, high quality setup and the expensive boxes.

Actually, I'd like to see this sort of stuff done on lots of these components aimed at either improving noise floors and / or power. I am a bit surprised that making recordings from DAC outputs seems to be so uncommon. StereoPlay did it in Germany with an extensive cable test but I have seen little else.

Hi fiddle

Thats Adobe Audition, general audio editing /recording software.

I use it and ARTA which is free.

 

[amirm]

Amir,

I am really impressed with the quality and clarity of your graphs. Do you mind me asking what software you use please?

I use Adobe Audition. Then pull them into Photoshop for labeling.

 

[Rodney Gold]

what I want to know is whether the noise floor is actually audible and whether the changes/improvements at that low level are as well..

 

[BE718]

Unlikely, however some say they can hear the beating of a butterflies Heart on the other side of the world......

 

[esldude]

what I want to know is whether the noise floor is actually audible and whether the changes/improvements at that low level are as well..

Well, not what you had in mind with your post I think, but download the files where I digitally amped the silence. You can hear how the noise floors differ. Remember these differences would be 90 db quieter and masked while music plays.

If you don't like they are MP3, PM me an email address and I can send you the 48/24 versions.

 

[Rodney Gold]

at -90db and masked as music is playing , I would imagine it's not that relevant.. stuff vibrating in sympathy in the room would most likely be an order of magnitude louder?

 

[BE718]

Just to satisfy JK Here is the noise floor measurement at the NCORE amp output (with MDAC connected).

Note that the measurement wasnt re-calibrated after measuring the MDAC so FS is 4 vRMS. The NCORE output obviuosly swings much higher than this so it isnt the true noise floor. Its lower, HYPEX state an SNR of125 dB unweighted at full output. No ground, no entreq

 

[the sound of Tao]

Unlikely, however some say they can hear the beating of a butterflies Heart on the other side of the world......

Rather than just piling on with more and more sarcasm you could just add some more valid and valuable critical comment if only you would just take an hour or two away from the relative comfort of your armchair to first validate your opinions by making some basic effort and just having a listen to an Entreq setup for yourself... it would be great and genuinely do a lot for your credibility when you make further comment on this gear be it positive or negative.

Just do some basic diligence and try it... plug it in and have a little listen first... it's an essential part of what people do when they genuinely want to assess equipment with any degree of authority.

 

[BE718]

Rather than just piling on with more and more sarcasm you could just add some more valid and valuable critical comment if only you would just take an hour or two away from the relative comfort of your armchair to first validate your opinions by making some basic effort and just having a listen to an Entreq setup for yourself... it would be great and genuinely do a lot for your credibility when you make further comment on this gear be it positive or negative.

Just do some basic diligence and try it... plug it in and have a little listen first... it's an essential part of what people do when they genuinely want to assess equipment with any degree of authority.

The entreq is intended and sold to deal with system noise. I dont have a problem with system noise as I have clearly demonstrated. What possible use or effect would the entreq have? I have validated my opinion by demonstrating why it would be of no use.

I have provided plenty of measured and accurate technical information, I get the fact that it doesnt concur with your opinions, but dont try and make out it is lacking authority or credibility. Or at least any less credibility than "I hear it therefore it is" of your subjective POV.

The question you need to ask is why do you need the entreq?

Also, you really do need to get a sense of humour.

 

[spazmatron]

BE718, try the entreq.. it wont cost you anything.

sound of tao is intelligent, insightful and does indeed have a sense of humour. he is one of the more agreeable meat sacks that frequent this place.

 

[BE718]

BE718, try the entreq.. it wont cost you anything.

sound of tao is intelligent, insightful and does indeed have a sense of humour. he is one of the more agreeable meat sacks that frequent this place.

Sorry, was this sarcasm? Meat sack?

 

[spazmatron]

i some times refer to humans as meat sacks, i think i got it from a star trek episode.. cant remember.

 

[jkeny]

Oh really. Now now, dont use JK baiting tactics.

I already explained quite simply that there is no earth connection in my system. JK already knows full well what equipment I have, so I am not sure why he keeps asking .

Tag Mclaren processor and power amp, a MDAC, NCORE NC400 monoblocks and guess what BE718 Usher speakers. Also Oppo PM1 headphones. I have an Onkyo NR5010 for home theatre duties. Cables are Belden/Mogami.

I think POs reticence to talk about the technicalities of this product has nothing to do with commercial IP. The Chinese are already knocking of $30 copies. Describing the alleged principle of operation would be no threat to that IP anyway as it is so easy to copy.

Measurements are performed with a Texas Instruments PCM4222evm board.

Hope that helps

If you told me all this before, I apologise, I don't remember it - I do remember that you use the usher speakers model number as your username but other than that I have no recollection of your system

But anyway, what I'm interested in & it appears others are interested too is how to configure a system like yours that is relatively immune to ground issues & doesn't require the use of these add-on devices to improve it. I think most here agree that it is the exception, rather than the norm & it represents, to me, anyway an opportunity for learning some more about the practicalities of proper grounding in a real-world audio system. I'm sorry if you consider this baiting tactics.

So, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask some questions:
All these devices are double insulated? How restrictive a choice does this criteria make in configuring such an audio system?
What role does the Mclaren have - a preamp?
Where is the signal ground & PS ground connected?
What PC & USB DAC do you use - are these double insulated?
What happens if you introduce a mains grounded device into this chain?

What I'm hoping for is an opening up of the discussion & a sharing of your knowledge on grounding in a practical way, using your own system to outline the important points

 

[YashN]

The entreq is intended and sold to deal with system noise. I dont have a problem with system noise as I have clearly demonstrated.

But why can't you hear the difference in the files provided by Fiddle Faddle in his system?

 

[Geardaddy]

I´m not a member of WBF or any forum at all. And I have sworn that I never should join any debate on any forum.
But this time I feel that I have too. I´m not comfortable when customers that use our products have to defence themselves and Entreq against people who never try any of our products, but anyhow know that they don’t work and know for sure that it´s cat litter, cloth hangers, dirt etc in bad wood boxes . That they who use our products have faulty systems and that some wires twisted together will do the same thing as our boxes.
A good example of this clever heads is on page 149-151 on the Entreq thread on WBF where they ensure that Amp will blow away if connect negative Spkr to a Poseidon. So far no Amp has blown away and now days no one anymore ensures it will happen. So now it´s other truths they tell everyone who go in the thread..
Yes, of course, cables from each unit twisted together will have an effect, no doubt. Cables of different materials will also give different effect.
If you attach the cables on a Cupper plate you will have another effect. And if you put them on Brass, Magnesium ,Aluminium or what metal plate you choose you will get different effect each time.
Especially audible effect, but also measurable. And this is easy to test for everyone.
The Tellus that was opened and shown on photo are one of our first test ex of Tellus.
It´s no excuse for it look like it do inside, but if you want to comment our woodwork, please take a look at our Athena rack instead.
We spend the effort on what we think is important. A box that never is meant to be opend……………………..??
In the nineties I get 3 Patents approved. 2 of them where “stolen” or used by other bigger companys 2-3 year after we get the Pat approved.
When it happened first time I used lawyers and fight for protect my Pat.
I fight until I was nearly ruined then there was no way protect it anymore
Second time I simply have no money left to fight, so it was easy for another company to just start copy and use my ideas that have cost us a lot to develop and get Pat protection.


The lesson I learn.
Keep your knowledge by yourself. The important is that the customers/users are satisfied with the products and that you are able give them good service. And you are not, if you spend all money and time on try protect your products from copy and defence the products against rumours from people who never will use the products anyway, because they have better solutions created by their own.
So I will not share any of my knowledge or our measurements or any other info just because some trolls shout loudly that we have to. I feel very sorry for all you users who have to take all this **** on forums, when it´s me who are guilty for it and me who should have it instead of you, but I hope you understand me and I hope no one of you users feel that you not have get value for your money when buy our products.
And for you who absolutely need measurements for feel safe with your investing I´m also sorry. But I would not give you any. If it depends on that we don’t have any or if we don’t want to share it??
It´s up to your own imagine, but that´s the way I will continue.
This was a exception. I will not join any debate again in future, but I
would one more time say thank you to our customers. No names, no one forget
PO

Per, I have patented things, and what you learn is that it becomes a blueprint for theft unless you have deep pockets for lawyers. Thanks for chiming in, and we apologize as a community for the mean spirited arm chair engineering. Funnily enough, like certain parts of physics (and certainly mathematics), audio inhabits a theoretical frontier of sorts that may frustrate certain "engineers" who try to extrapolate their knowledge base while illuminating little and merely defeat a straw man.

 

[esldude]

i some times refer to humans as meat sacks, i think i got it from a star trek episode.. cant remember.

I thought it was ugly bags of water. Maybe a different episode.