Entreq Tellus grounding,in england

[Geardaddy]

Though you may not accept it, this is really simple. You have a known signal for input. You can monitor the output say at the binding posts of the speaker. Transparent is when the signal at the end of the chain matches the signal input. It cannot be perfect at a bare minimum due to thermal noise. Other sources of noise can be measured and perhaps tamed or eliminated.

If your cable makes glaring differences the cable or equipment has an issue. While sources of this may be outside the audible band of frequencies it is only the change in audible sounds which can be heard as different. When done well, which isn't terribly expensive, good ole wire of the right type can transmit signal with darn little alteration of them. Certainly not glaring differences by any means. So no it isn't circular reasoning it is knowledge of how signals can be transmitted which leads one to the idea competently designed cable would not make a lot of difference.

That is completely circular. What variables are you measuring at the output and how does that specific set of variables correlate with acoustic output? That is why something like the Nordost/Vertex software would be great as it would provide more meaningful information beyond RadioShack meters, freeware, and 1950s engineering....

People use the same arguments regarding tubes vs transistors, vinyl versus digital, etc and round and round people go because the measurable variables that actually correlate with acoustic phenomena are missing. There is a lag. What really makes me laugh is the number of cheeseball engineers who hold court on forums and patronize audiophiles and yet own systems that will make animals and small children flee. The dichotomy is just too rich for words.....

 

[amirm]

Thanks for chiming in, and we apologize as a community for the mean spirited arm chair engineering.

There is nothing to apologize for regardless of what camp you are in. The main entreq thread has a quarter million views. Let me repeat, a quarter of million views. Our forum is orders of magnitude more busy than Entreq site. As such, it has substantially increased the traffic and organic search results for Entreq. Heck I had no idea what it was until I read mention of it in our forum. If you search for Entreq on Google, we show up on the first page of results. That's advertising for them without paying a cent for it.

It is for these reasons that I take exception to the tone P-O is using to address us. Nothing good comes out of a negative, emotionally charged post on a forum. Either don't participate in forums or be cordial beyond measure.

As to your comment, we are looking for any engineering in the product. As such, we are pretty far from arm chair engineering anything. We are discussing a product to attempt to quantify what it does. This is for example useful in deciding which one of their models to buy. Or that of competing products. No one should ever find such discussion and education offensive. Even P-O should find value in this as I am confident there is no measurement he has that rises up to what we have been doing.

I have never seen a situation where a consumer is better off with less information and scrutiny than more. Advocating it in audio makes zero sense to me unless one is more interested in supporting a company than us the potential customers.

 

[Geardaddy]

There is nothing to apologize for regardless of what camp you are in. The main entreq thread has a quarter million views. Let me repeat, a quarter of million views. Our forum is orders of magnitude more busy than Entreq site. As such, it has substantially increased the traffic and organic search results for Entreq. Heck I had no idea what it was until I read mention of it in our forum. If you search for Entreq on Google, we show up on the first page of results. That's advertising for them without paying a cent for it.

It is for these reasons that I take exception to the tone P-O is using to address us. Nothing good comes out of a negative, emotionally charged post on a forum. Either don't participate in forums or be cordial beyond measure.

As to your comment, we are looking for any engineering in the product. As such, we are pretty far from arm chair engineering anything. We are discussing a product to attempt to quantify what it does. This is for example useful in deciding which one of their models to buy. Or that of competing products. No one should ever find such discussion and education offensive. Even P-O should find value in this as I am confident there is no measurement he has that rises up to what we have been doing.

I have never seen a situation where a consumer is better off with less information and scrutiny than more. Advocating it in audio makes zero sense to me unless one is more interested in supporting a company than us the potential customers.

An emotionally charge post from a Swede? I have never heard of such a thing....

As for the rest of your post, its an easy position for you to take. You don't feed your kids with WBF. Because of Al Gore's invention, small businesses can be smoked with a click of a mouse with no recourse. On the other hand, if you are a big corporation, you can spit out crappy products and not miss a beat.

 

[Howard]

I thought it was ugly bags of water. Maybe a different episode.

Actually, it was "ugly bags of mostly water".

 

[esldude]

Actually, it was "ugly bags of mostly water".

Touche'

Of course there is this>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnFSqVfNrXY

 

[esldude]

That is completely circular. What variables are you measuring at the output and how does that specific set of variables correlate with acoustic output? That is why something like the Nordost/Vertex software would be great as it would provide more meaningful information beyond RadioShack meters, freeware, and 1950s engineering....

People use the same arguments regarding tubes vs transistors, vinyl versus digital, etc and round and round people go because the measurable variables that actually correlate with acoustic phenomena are missing. There is a lag. What really makes me laugh is the number of cheeseball engineers who hold court on forums and patronize audiophiles and yet own systems that will make animals and small children flee. The dichotomy is just too rich for words.....

Well frankly I find the situation as amusing as you do. Only in the opposite direction.

One way to measure is null testing. Feed the reversed output against the input and see what is left. Or null two outputs against each other and see how they differ with different components in between. Many people have done what Vertex did only better. I won't put much into that point as there was already a whole thread about it here somewhere. We aren't talking RS meters and 1950's engineering. And don't knock freeware as it can be very useful in ways people in the 1950's only dreamed of having available. With null testing factors you don't know about or take account of will still show up.

Null testing is something like blind testing. You can mess it up, and care is required for meaningful results along with careful interpretation of what you are seeing. Nevertheless it is very effective. It also agrees in large measure with simple measurements of a system. You know, IMD, THD, SNR and FR.

Tubes generally will not match SS for accuracy of signal transmission. Ditto for vinyl vs digital. Simple measurable facts. I agree correlating that with what people hear is another matter. The actual accuracy is not in question nonetheless. So why does a colored musical source sometimes sound better than high fidelity? Some of it is known and people in the high end just plain don't wish to accept it. Too hard to go against their gut feelings. Other parts could still be fleshed out. Making the common conclusion vinyl or vacuum tube technology is somehow immeasurably more accurate isn't going to get you anywhere because it is a false premise.

 

[jkeny]

I have to say that the attitude that prevails & is allowed to prevail on this thread towards a manufacturer's product does not match with the oft stated mantra of this forum about it's members "we are better than this".

 

[Purite Audio]

I have to say that the attitude that prevails & is allowed to prevail on this thread towards a manufacturer's product does not match with the oft stated mantra of this forum about it's members "we are better than this".

I believe the investigation of this particular product will be extremely useful to potential purchasers.
Keith

 

[amirm]

Here's an exciting interview with Per-Olof Friberg, Chief Designer and CEO of Entreq

Cables discussed then ground boxes at 7:30

THanks Ray. Some of it was hard to understand but still good watch.

 

[amirm]

As for the rest of your post, its an easy position for you to take. You don't feed your kids with WBF.

Please. THis is a non-profit forum. Steve and I paid out of our own pocket to create the forum. He sells products at premium prices and makes money. And we send him advertising. We are not here to protect manufacturers at the expense of our membership. If members want to talk about and criticize products, they can. No amount of "crying for the little guy" is going to stop that.

Because of Al Gore's invention, small businesses can be smoked with a click of a mouse with no recourse. On the other hand, if you are a big corporation, you can spit out crappy products and not miss a beat.

I know of no such reality. Apple puts out a phone and the Internet goes nuts with "antennagate." The Internet allows high scrutiny of products. That is the reality of it. If your product has merit, you should create marketing collateral that defend it. If you don't do that and have no response to critiques, then what happens is what happens.

P.S. As I have mentioned before, I invented the Internet. I told Gore at a dinner about it and he ran off with it but the original invention was mine.

 

[esldude]

P.S. As I have mentioned before, I invented the Internet. I told Gore at a dinner about it and he ran off with it but the original invention was mine.

The internet would be much more evolved and much better SNR if you had gotten the grounding right from the outset.

 

[rockitman]

Did this comparison earlier but my PC hung and lost the work . So here it is again showing just the silence section:

As we see there is some reduction in the peaks with Entreq.

so can you explain this chart ? I see the entreq has smaller amplitude peaks...does this mean lower noise ? What did you conclude ?

 

[amirm]

so can you explain this chart ? I see the entreq has smaller amplitude peaks...does this mean lower noise ? What did you conclude ?

It means that if there are no experimental errors.

 

[jkeny]

I believe the investigation of this particular product will be extremely useful to potential purchasers.
Keith

Indeed & a pity that this attitude didn't prevail from the first page of posts
I believe that the wider aspect of grounding in multi-device audio chains will be even more useful to readers

 

[amirm]

I don't frequent Consumer Reports website, and never will.

I am a subscriber and read it and get a lot of value out of it.

likely not much fun or where I want to go to hang with my buds. but I get that the slant of this Forum is toward (certainly not away) from that mind set.

I am a staunch advocate of consumer rights to information and transparency. If you favor otherwise, that's cool but don't look to me for sympathy.

If I want to go and spend $200 on a toaster oven, I want to know that it performs better than a $30 one. You make a living selling cars that have been praised by consumer reports for years and years. When I used to buy Honda's that was always front and center in salesman's pitch. Now you come and say you put no value in CR??? Give us some credit for intelligence Mike.

if web traffic is the stated goal of the Forum then maybe someone gives points for that; not me. controversy is what leads news shows for the same reason; I don't watch those either.

We sell nothing because of our traffic. No ads. No nothing. You are confusing us with some other forum with that argument.

I do see where you are coming from and why you see things that way. for you it is the right way to go.

No, it is good for all of us to have more information than not, unless you are a manufacturer and don't like that information to come to surface. The Jeep dealership doesn't tout consumer reports as a source of fair information like you do because their cars rate at the bottom of reliability rankings.

To use your debating tactic, you can live one way in real life and another in forums. It works for you. Just don't ask me to subscribe to its hypocrisy that way. It is not for me.

 

[Barry2013]

Hi Amir.
I can't find Mike Lavigne's post to which you have just replied
Can you give me the thread no

 

[RayDunzl]

so can you explain this chart ? I see the entreq has smaller amplitude peaks...does this mean lower noise ? What did you conclude ?

Since we don't know what we are looking at (yet) one conclusion I could make is that the intrinsic noise levels were higher during the time period that the Entreq was not connected - the source noise.

In other words, does the noise level vary over time?

 

[Ron Party]

I've asked this question before, but all I heard were crickets. Is there only one acceptable way to be an audiophile? I read the posts from some who seem to be upset that others don't subscribe to their singular view, even to the point of casting tunnel vision aspersions as to the orientation of WBF, all the while conveniently and self-servingly forgetting the number of members, including former experts who had their own sections here, who have left and/or been virtually driven away.

So I state to you, if you are so intolerant then why are you here in a discussion forum? Just leave. Life is short. Eat dessert first as my friend audioguy suggests.

I for one would like to thank those who offered anecdotal reports from personal experience with the product under discussion as well as those who have contributed technical information and measurements.

 

[amirm]

Hi Amir.
I can't find Mike Lavigne's post to which you have just replied
Can you give me the thread no

Looks like he deleted it after I responded to it (it was posted in this thread). I included the entirety of what he said in my response so you can go by that.

 

[jkeny]

Just in relation to these measurements, the upper limit of 20KHz is very blinkered or do we not wish to consider the possible effect of RF noise intermodulating down into the audio band on downstream devices?
Please, don't say the downstream devices are broken if they are audibly affected by RF noise

One other aspect - how does the noisefloor change with changing signal - noise modulation?