Entreq Tellus grounding,in england

[Geardaddy]

I think this thread should be picked up over here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19686-The-official-audio-myth-busting-thread/page53

 

[amirm]

Not a bad idea at all .

Thanks everyone for constructive back and forth.

 

[Geardaddy]

What is interesting to me amirm is how a sublimated and humorless anger is leeching out more and more onto the forums. The days of a more balanced, Socratic dialogue are rarer. The times we live in are increasingly stressful, and it shows!

 

[amirm]

What is interesting to me amirm is how a sublimated and humorless anger is leeching out more and more onto the forums. The days of a more balanced, Socratic dialogue are rarer. The times we live in are increasingly stressful, and it shows!

Very true. And that is just half of it. Worse version of it goes on behind the scenes. Having to deal with both makes it doubly unfortunate.

 

[rockitman]

The issue with controversial technology like this is that it provides a virtual field day for trolls. Topics like cables, grounding units etc virtually act like giant troll magnets.Over some considerable time I trialled Entreq's Silver Minimus, Silver Tellus and Olympus Minimus in a range of setups with copper thru to silver grounding cables including Apollo and Atlantis and applied both as signal and chassis grounds to amps, preamps and source as well as using the AC wraps and vibe eaters and the outcomes for me subjectively have been variable. The kind of results that lead me to suggest that they are quite possibly particularly system dependent in effect.

At their best the gear as a pattern of behaviour tends to provide flow and a fullness and seems to be able to rid some systems of the artefacts that distract from an easy connection to the emotional content of music making... at the worst they could push the signal too far into the passive and then undo the inherent dynamic drive of the mid bass structure and effectively make the musical structure lean towards too passive... but this was only within one system that already had a really good balance in terms of attack and decay.

Predominantly with Entreq the results for me have largely been great and very much in the music's favour and more than worth an audition. Bottom line - the gear makes the signal change in audible ways. Whether that is positive or otherwise is largely system and context specific so for those not having heard it within their system it really means that you have no real or genuine understanding of how it might sound.

As to Rodney Gold's great overview of the underlying issue posed by the kinds of conflict engendered by the potentially obsessive and compulsive ridden behaviour of those who come to a thread like this with only a virtual understanding of the idea of the approach and no real experience at all with the equipment. This and little genuine self interest or commitment other than just winding up a bit of conflict so that they ultimately bring with them little real value beyond some superficial observations on the way that the gear looks and some self inflated theorising on how it all might or might not work. The value of this is marginal if not next to useless and builds little on any real understanding of the effects of adding this particular gear to our systems.

Ps Beyond this the only known method of killing a troll is Rodney's great observation on piling on... Hopefully suffocating the sad creature till it relents in it's epic contagion of untold miseries. Do the world and the troll a favour... inspire it to go out and seek life experiences beyond the safe prison of its pet theories. Said with love.

well said Tao!

 

[Geardaddy]

Very true. And that is just half of it. Worse version of it goes on behind the scenes. Having to deal with both makes it doubly unfortunate.

I surmised as much. I am sure its a real treat to conduct endless, low intensity warfare with niggly, passive aggressive audiophiles....

 

[spazmatron]

The king needs a hand

Who you calling passive

 

[the sound of Tao]

Interesting position. It appears that those who are believers in the product do not want anything said to the contrary. Dont want others to rationally explore what it is claimed to do and its method of operation. Why do they accuse others who seek this enlightenment to be trolls? Why the overt attacks? I have to ask what they are afraid of?

My understanding of the technicalities is not virtual, this appears to be firmly in the territory of those who believe the product has a beneficial effect. I am still waiting for someone to come forward and explain how the box works.

Just something else for you to consider is what are the reasons for a plywood box containing some bent pieces of copper and unidentified granular material (which some strongly suspect is kitty litter) to be more effective than bonding said components directly (from an earthing POV)? What if your kit is double insulated?

Quite the opposite, I genuinely applaud people giving considered and fair assessment on gear and then sharing their findings with honesty and transparency be it good, bad or even no change in sound at all. Every system is a sum of it's mixed soup of distortions and so an approach that may for example tend to reduce odd order harmarmonics more so than even order harmonics may prove variably beneficial based upon the characteristic nature of any specific system. The value of subjective assessment is increased by the range of people's experiences.

My point is that fair assessment asks that we explore further than perhaps just comfortably and with little real effort play armchair critic of something without ever validating our theories by some reasonable trial of the gear. Particularly if someone intends to weigh in heavily over a longer period of time into that conversation... that it might be useful that we get some practical and specific experience with the gear in question beyond perhaps just looking at photos on the net and making an assessment that way.

 

[BE718]

Amir,

My wording may have lacked finesse but I think we are on the same page about civil discourse. The only issue is that when engaged over a comment similar to "I heard ... And it made my system better" someone either doesn't answer the technical question directly, it sometimes turns into a witch hunt. It does also happen the other way but as this to me is a subjective hobby i.e. there are no winners or champions declared why can't the tech oriented then go off into their own sandbox and discuss the lunacy of said tweak without sticking around to berate the less tech bent.

I make a living collecting and analyzing environmental data. I have seen people use these data without context to hilarious results. I feel the same way about someone who is lecturing people less measurement oriented about something they have not heard.

Someone made a crack earlier about jumping off a building to see what it's like. Well I wouldn't unless I had a chute but I have done something many would see as equally crazy and dipped a bare finger in molten lead to no ill effect. Just because you think it's obvious that something should be done doesn't make it necessarily so. A little education and some practical experience can open eyes.

The context Beaur is a technical one. This is not about measurement. My opinions are based on education and many years of practical experience in relevant technical fields. The logic that someone has to hear it to have a valid opinion regarding it is totally false.

Whilst there may have been a few sarcastic comments regarding these boxes, because let's face it people are absolutely right to be somewhat skeptical and incredulous about them, the aggression has very much come from the believers in the product with ad hominem to anyone questioning it.

 

[BE718]

Quite the opposite, I genuinely applaud people giving considered and fair assessment on gear and then sharing their findings with honesty and transparency be it good, bad or even no change in sound at all. Every system is a sum of it's mixed soup of distortions and so an approach that may for example tend to reduce odd order harmarmonics more so than even order harmonics may prove variably beneficial based upon the characteristic nature of any specific system. The value of subjective assessment is increased by the range of people's experiences.

My point is that fair assessment asks that we explore further than perhaps just comfortably and with little real effort play armchair critic of something without ever validating our theories by some reasonable trial of the gear. Particularly if someone intends to weigh in heavily over a longer period of time into that conversation... that it might be useful that we get some practical and specific experience with the gear in question beyond perhaps just looking at photos on the net and making an assessment that way.

So why all your comments about trolls, ad hominem about people on a wind up with compulsive obsessive disorders and "suffocating the poor creatures" with uninformed pet theories? That hardly sits with your latest comments.

As I explained my experience isnt in any way "armchair". If these boxes do work and the benefits perceived by some are not purely the product of expectation bias and placebo, you really need to asking yourself what is wrong with the grounding regime in your system. It clearly isnt working as it should in that case.

 

[the sound of Tao]

So why all your comments about trolls, ad hominem about people on a wind up with compulsive obsessive disorders and "suffocating the poor creatures" with uninformed pet theories? That hardly sits with your latest comments.

As I explained my experience isnt in any way "armchair". If these boxes do work and the benefits perceived by some are not purely the product of expectation bias and placebo, you really need to asking yourself what is wrong with the grounding regime in your system. It clearly isnt working as it should in that case.

You can make assumptions that there is a problem in my system or that there is a problem with my listening perception being coloured by placebo and expectation bias as assumptions it seems are all that you have with regards to Entreq gear.

I have never been a significant poster on Entreq threads nor actively promoted it prior to my original post yesterday but have some relative interest based upon quite overall positive experiences with their gear. My challenge to you is to try the gear and also gather something other than assumptions. Just get an experience of it for good or bad because you clearly have enough interest here to have become a regular poster in this topic and if you can add your experiences to our understanding of this gear that could be valuable.

 

[BE718]

You can make assumptions that there is a problem in my system or that there is a problem with my listening perception being coloured by placebo and expectation bias as assumptions it seems are all that you have with regards to Entreq gear.

I have never been a significant poster on Entreq threads nor actively promoted it prior to my original post yesterday but have some relative interest based upon quite overall positive experiences with their gear. My challenge to you is to try the gear and also gather something other than assumptions. Just get an experience of it for good or bad because you clearly have enough interest here to have become a regular poster in this topic and if you can add your experiences to our understanding of this gear that could be valuable.

They are all very real possibilities, and frankly far more likely than a poorly made plywood box with some bent bits of copper and kitty litter inside doing anything magically beneficial. These are not assumptions BTW.

....and yes, if these boxes are genuinely creating benefit due to improving the "grounding" of your system then yes there quite obviously is something deficient in its grounding regime.

 

[Folsom]

BE718,

For fun why don't you do your best to imagine how it could possible cause improvements; and not just "added noise is liked by some".

I think it would be more constructive if you put out your best guesses, as if you actually believed it could work. It will be informative for yourself to help quantify why you suspect it doesn't work, by trying to figure out how it does in fact work. And what I really want is for it to be educational for all of us.

 

[TitaniumTroy]

Thanks to Spiritofmusic, I always wondered what was in those grounding boxes. While the sonic benefits can be debated, I think Purite's first description of it visually was spot on. Sorry if that ruffles somebody's feathers, but it is what is. On another Entreq grounding thread which seems to go forever, I was amazed it only had a handful of contributors. The Grounding club seems like a small club, which doesn't effect whether it works or not, but I'm just saying.

 

[amirm]

BE718,

For fun why don't you do your best to imagine how it could possible cause improvements; and not just "added noise is liked by some".

I think it would be more constructive if you put out your best guesses, as if you actually believed it could work. It will be informative for yourself to help quantify why you suspect it doesn't work, by trying to figure out how it does in fact work.

If I reported that my car runs better after I wash it, would it be proper for me to ask you to think of why it would do that?

Some things approach the impossibility so closely that it becomes unreasonable to ask people to invent reasons why they could work. I can bring 100 analog designers and have them all swear the box does nothing. Should we still be told to go and figure out a reason it does something?

 

[jeromelang]

I've no doubt that this thingy makes audio system sound different.

The question I would ask is - what happens if I....

- attach a thin wire from the chassis of one of the audio components in my system (or from an RCA output terminal) and link it to a piece of metal plate placed half a meter away.
I am sure I will already hear a difference. But why?

What happens if I.....

- just place that same piece of metal plate half a meter from my system but without any thin wire attach to it.
I still will hear a difference, I am sure.
Here's that "why" I'd like answer again.

Now, assuming if I manage to get those exact same granular materials and I put them in a box, and place it half a meter away from my system, will I hear any difference?
I'm sure I will.
Wouldn't you also like to know why?

 

[Rodney Gold]

when you wash a car , it removes all the particles that would create more wind resistance .. so washing the car is good for top end speed .. you will go 0.024 mph faster
It has downsides..In my opinion dirt protects the paint from fading etc.. so there is also a case for NOT washing your car..

 

[Folsom]

If I reported that my car runs better after I wash it, would it be proper for me to ask you to think of why it would do that?

If 75-90% of people with the same car made the same report - and I were someone with related experience but skeptical - then most certainly. It does no good to just exercise biases all day.

 

[bonzo75]

What matters is if the car runs better, not why it does so. Many car owners wouldn't care, while car mechanics/designers would and should.

I think the analogy is wrong because in this case people are challenging that the car does not run better, and the driver is imagining it does

 

[BE718]

BE718,

For fun why don't you do your best to imagine how it could possible cause improvements; and not just "added noise is liked by some".

I think it would be more constructive if you put out your best guesses, as if you actually believed it could work. It will be informative for yourself to help quantify why you suspect it doesn't work, by trying to figure out how it does in fact work. And what I really want is for it to be educational for all of us.

This is the point, I have tried my damnedest to imagine how it works, and even with my technical background I am somewhat at a loss. The only way it could be doing something beneficial is if the grounding regime in the system is deficient in some way. Hooking all the boxes together could possibly help - it could also possibly cause additional problems. However if this is the case that its helpful you certainly dont need bent bits of copper and cat litter, a reasonably thick bit low impedance and very ordinary cable costing next to nothing will do a far better job.

It is also getting pretty tedious that there appears to be a faction here that wants to imply my questioning of the product and peoples reports about it is somehow unreasonable or unfair.