Entreq Tellus grounding

[Fiddle Faddle]

Thanks very much Barry. I've been doing much more listening today and tonight and as a result I think the answer as to what to do has become clear. The reason is that I am astonished as to the difference the Entreq has made to my audio workstation through doing nothing more than plugging the RCA connector into the spare left channel analogue RCA output of the "main" soundcard (this is the "output" soundcard - there is a second soundcard that only records from a digital input and is used for real time mixing from the first soundcard output but I did not touch that second card). Anyway, the improvement is even bigger than it is on the system I have listed in my profile. Whether that is because from the Entreq's point of view all it is seeing is a relatively small soundcard versus a "proper" hifi component I am not sure, but the difference is large. Way larger than I could have ever imagined it would be.

This means I want Entreq boxes on both my hifi system and my workstation. And that really dictates what I can do since the cost of just two Minimus boxes and two Konstantin cables more than eats my entire "upgrade budget" for the next two years!!!

So due to practical considerations, box by box over the coming years it is going to have to be since even getting one of the multi-connector boxes right now is going to blow the budget way over and I simply cannot manage it financially at all (and the workstation and hifi are in completely separate parts of the house for starters so they can't share one larger box and I certainly wouldn't even want to try that even if I could).

One final comment. I notice there are certain people, including people involved with hifi for a living who don't believe in these boxes or demand a theoretical explanation of how they work. Having heard the massive difference even the most basic box and second most basic cable makes, I think these people are doing a great disservice to both themselves and their customers by not giving them a go. I've heard smaller differences from complete component upgrades. Together with my recent purchase of the Gigawatt PF1, the improvement in my system has been significant, even if all the stuff I am using is budget gear. I can only imagine therefore what the improvements would be to high quality systems using the much more expensive Entreq products.

 

[Barry2013]

Thanks for getting back with your decision.
It makes perfect sense for your needs and I am certain you will gets lots of pleasure and satisfaction from your choice.
Yes I don't understand those who knock the Entreq grounding though I have no problem with those who feel the Tripoints are a better buy, but the latter is beyond the reach of the vast majority of people.
I have been consistently delighted and satisfied with all my Entreq products and they work extremely well with my system.
Enjoy!

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Thanks again Barry. It was actually mainly yours and SpiritofMusic's contributions that made me take the punt on this stuff. I was really a little dubious about it even after your posts, mainly because I wasn't sure my gear would be revealing enough to bring out any differences (I'm not worried about my listening skills). But the opposite was the case - it all stood out like a sore thumb.

One thing you have said though which I need to consider is that my dealer wouldn't be in a position to trade stuff in and - let's be honest here - none of these things are going to be easy to sell second hand because there are just too many people out there who are sceptical or need a 100 page scientific document before they will even be in the same room with them. Yes, they will sell well to someone who has seen (heard) the light but that is not a huge market. Not only that, but a professional review I read recently mentioned that a Silver Minimus plus basic Eartha cable is noticeably superior to a Copper Minimus plus Eartha Konstantin cable (the latter combination being what I have). And the price difference between a pair of Silver Minimus and a pair of Minimus is around $650 where I live - OK that is still big money to me but it is not unachievable either.

So I still need to carefully consider sticking partly with my original plan (which is the Silver Minimus). That at least lets me get on with a lengthy project I have on my workstation at the moment (since I can have the box and cable installed on that) and then sort of try to "forget" about normal hifi listening until I can afford a second Silver Minimus and cable. This might take me until the end of the year but then I end up with boxes that I won't feel are "second best" (and I can tell you now, unless I win the lottery I will never be able to afford anything better than Silver Minimus boxes).

Anyway, this reviewer - like others - felt that the Silver boxes in general are a significant step up from the copper boxes and as I mentioned in my earlier posts, I am still missing a bit of air and the sound is a little closed-in, cold sounding and lacking in PRaT (this is in relative terms - it is very, very good in absolute terms). And it's these things that seem to be largely helped with the Silver boxes as opposed to the copper ones (from what I have been reading).

I guess the last thing I want to do is buy two copper boxes and then two years down the track realise I could have two silver boxes. It would make things a lot easier if I could compare them - I might contact the dealer and ask him that whether it is possible to hear both and only return the silver if I cannot hear any difference (I really doubt this is likely, I think I will hear a difference to be honest because I've been able to hear any differences that anyone else has).

 

[Barry2013]

Both are viable options but I am a believer in the buy the best you can afford school of thought because on the few occasions I have gone for the cheaper option I have regretted it and wished I had been more patient.
I would therefore go for the single Silver Minimus and silver earth cable which is clearly the better performer.
Entreq used products do come up from time to time on Hifi Shark including sellers in the USA and Canada so if you do go for the single Silver Minimus you might down the line be able to find a second used Silver Minimus, There are bound to be people upgrading to the Silver Tellus who then have a surplus Silver Minimus which you could pick up more cheaply.
If the dealer will let you try both that would be ideal in helping you to decide so nothing is lost by asking him.
Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[mauidan]

There's a great deal on a Silver Tellus here:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18247-FS-Entreq-Silver-Tellus

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Both are viable options but I am a believer in the buy the best you can afford school of thought because on the few occasions I have gone for the cheaper option I have regretted it and wished I had been more patient....If the dealer will let you try both that would be ideal in helping you to decide so nothing is lost by asking him.

Yes, that has happened to me in the past as well. I've emailed the dealer asking him if he is prepared to add a demo Minimus Silver to his shop inventory in addition to the demo plain Minimus he already has and if it would be possible for me to compare them both at home for at least a week (I obviously have the loan plain Minimus a the moment). The plan would be that if I don't think the difference is justified, I settle for buying two plain Minimus boxes right away with two Eartha Konstantin cables, or otherwise buy the one Minimus Silver right now and the second (hopefully) before Christmas.

The "good" thing about not being affluent is that the Minimus range represent the best I could ever afford, so I don't have to worry about the temptation of products higher up the line.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Thanks for the comment and link Dan. Unfortunately that is way beyond my means especially considering the enormous postage cost to Australia (as you know, this Entreq stuff is surprisingly heavy). Australia pricing is actually pretty good on Entreq products as well - it's one of the rare product lines where we get a very decent deal compared to the rest of the world (same with Project stuff). It probably helps that the distributer is also the retailer.

I actually even hesitated joining this forum because it is pretty obvious that nearly all of you have really top quality gear far, far beyond what I could ever hope to own or experience (except at hifi demos and shows). So I was a bit embarrassed joining given the lowly quality of my gear and the fact that funds are so limited I could never really be of any practical help to others here. That makes me appreciate the help I've gotten thus far even more. I also retired early due to ill health, so I really have to watch the money like a hawk (but by the same token I'm not going to deny myself something like the lower echelon Entreq stuff because the improvements are much more cost effective than upgrading entire components and go a long way to getting the hifi out of the way of the music itself).

 

[Rufus McDufus]

I get where you're coming from Fiddle Faddle and I'm in a not-dissimilar position financially, though I did end up splurging way too much on a Silver Tellus etc., effectively more than my annual spend on hi-fi.
This stuff needs a lot of experimentation and is very time-consuming in that regard. Over a year after I got most of my Entreq stuff I'm still experimenting and finding new improvements by hooking it up slightly differently.

Incidentally I haven't seen any mention of the new Entreq products announced recently. Serie II Eartha cables, Poseidon ground box, ES Pads (still not sure what they're for) and Optimus cable burner.
http://www.entreq.com/news-17217671

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I get where you're coming from Fiddle Faddle and I'm in a not-dissimilar position financially, though I did end up splurging way too much on a Silver Tellus etc., effectively more than my annual spend on hi-fi.
This stuff needs a lot of experimentation and is very time-consuming in that regard. Over a year after I got most of my Entreq stuff I'm still experimenting and finding new improvements by hooking it up slightly differently.

Incidentally I haven't seen any mention of the new Entreq products announced recently. Serie II Eartha cables, Poseidon ground box, ES Pads (still not sure what they're for) and Optimus cable burner.
http://www.entreq.com/news-17217671

But I bet your "over-committed" Tellus upgrade was one of the best and most cost effective upgrades you ever made! And you don't regret buying it regardless! Given how much better people say it is than the Minimus stuff, it would be a much more substantial improvement than the typical incremental source or amp upgrade people make.

And yes, I can see that the Entreq stuff opens itself up to experimentation. I always used to think tweaking and fine tuning was limited mainly to things like tube choices, isolation, cables and that sort of thing, but these Entreq products can so fundamentally alter the character of a system that I'd go so far as saying every system should be built upon an Entreq in the first place! And once the system is done, then you experiment with the different Entreq cables and connection points. Nothing has changed the sound of my system more than the acquisition of the Gigawatt PF1 and the Entreq Minimus over the last few weeks (with each of them changing / improving the sound in an equally "radical" way).

I am wondering about the new products as well, especially the Seires II cables. Are the Series II cables the ones that appear to have a more standard looking RCA ground connector? If so, that might explain the better deal I got on the Eartha Konstantin (it has the RCA connector that sort of looks like a semi circle of copper and a square sectioned copper wire sticking out over the face of the wood (and I assume this is a Series I cable).

 

[Rufus McDufus]

Well I did actually audition a standard Tellus first and to be honest I found that a big improvement over the S Minimus. I rather stupidly went Silver Tellus without actually hearing one and I'm still not 100% convinced it was financially the best move, but I'm still very happy with it of course.
I have recently tried my Silver Minimus on my Devialet 200 and was surprised what a large difference it made compared with how I remembered it. The good thing with Entreq is that the most expensive isn't necessarily the best.

 

[Orb]

Has the Entreq gear been increasing in prices?
I could had sworn the Entreq Tellus used to be cheaper than what it is today (just checked the price and even I could not stop an eyebrow raising Spock style ), Rufus I get what your saying now about the move to Silver Tellus and whether it was a good move or not.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Rufus McDufus]

I think the Silver Tellus probably is better. It's just that I was most surprised by the jump from Silver Minimus to standard Tellus.

 

[Barry2013]

I started with the standard Tellus and was impressed by it but soon upgraded to the Silver Tellus in order to ground more components. The resultant improvement was clearly evident but was probably a combination of it being better and more components grounded. I carried on from there and have had no regrets.
Despite two Silver Tellus, an Atlantis ground box and a Silver Minimus for the Challenger speaker cables, the introduction of two more Silver Minimus and Apollo ground cables to ground the amp's negative speaker terminals made a really substantial improvement, more so than I expected and immediately audible.We had been playing an old Dave Edmunds's recording on CD and recently acquired and with the amplifier grounding it no longer sounded like an old recording. It was up there with a modern recording.
Would recommend anyone to prioritise that Entreq upgrade over any others as and when resources permit.

 

[justubes]

Thanks to the active forumers in this thread.

I bought a silver minimus and silver ertha. Yes, the improvements were there and seeking more....

Immediately trialed a silver tellus and have the desire to not keep the silver minimus at any cost.

Did a shootout of the silver tellus and 2 silver minimus and Atlantis ertha.

Firstly, the erthas are to be considered as the first link, which is out of the component grounded, the choice of box is secondary.

The bigger box gives more grip on the music, but the silver minimus is not to be overlooked, less powerful effect but seems to me that it strikes a nice balance without being overpowering and allowing more textures, not being as clean as the Silver tellus. The silver minimus together with an atlantis ertha gave my system the best musical balance over many other combinations over the bigger unit. Just adding the atlantis ertha adds so much more musical textures, i know it's crazy given the price of the erthas.

I would say the Silver tellus will work in a tube based system or one that needs much more clarity to the sound. It was still impressive on instrumental and orchestra pieces, but was leaner and made the midrange less colourful.

There isnt a whole lot of difference in price between the minimus and silver minimus, but do try out the better erthas. I did find on some dealers offering the silver minimus with the apollo ertha and was thinking why not the bigger units with the basic copper erthas. It may well be that the cables play just or a more important role in the grounding.

I found that 2 silver minimus more to my likely than a single silver tellus. But even addingthe second minimus cleaned or leaned the sound a tad much for vocal orientated music and hoping to add a minimus which hopefully will not cause the leaner midrange in my system and just adding that tad more definition i need..

 

[Barry2013]

Thank you for giving us your feedback and sharing your experiences.
I have a mixture of Apollos and Atlantis and find both very good. The Atlantis work well on my DCS Puccini and Vitus SIA 025 amp but they can be system dependent in which case the Apollo is a better bet. In my experience the more of your system you ground the better the improvements which is where the extra capacity of the Silver Tellus proves worthwhile..
Do keep us posted!

 

[justubes]

Thank you for giving us your feedback and sharing your experiences.
I have a mixture of Apollos and Atlantis and find both very good. The Atlantis work well on my DCS Puccini and Vitus SIA 025 amp but they can be system dependent in which case the Apollo is a better bet. In my experience the more of your system you ground the better the improvements which is where the extra capacity of the Silver Tellus proves worthwhile..
Do keep us posted!

Hi Barry,

Thanks for your sharing too.

I have not tried the apollo, but found the atlantis exquistely rich and tonally saturated over the silver ertha or any other silver wire, i tried some duelund silver wire and it was not even close! I did find easily find a difference with any combination, but it with the right cable that made everything fall into place beautifully.

Strangely, this beautiful right natural sound was not obtained by the silver tellus and atlantis and another isolated minimus seems to give an overall purity to the sound over a single silver tellus which always had more grip and control to the sound, better staging and more clarity.... tonally, it was leaner though.

Just wondering is there any personal description of the sonic traits between apollo and atlantis or even the copper variants from your comparisons, as i really dont intend to spend that much again for the expensive ertha if i were to add another box.

That's why i wonder why the tripoint cables cost so much, there is a trick in the setting up of grounding devices as the cables are that important as a grounding system that these manufacturers dare ask the outrageous prices for just the cables. Many have added bigger or multiple boxes with the basic cables... but adding all apollos or atlantis costs a fairly large amount. It seems you have experienced all these combinations.

Btw, for those asking, the new series 2 is just a redesign of the wooden connector which is to give better fit for a wider range of rca sockets which the series I had some issues with certain rca sockets.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

I feel like I am in a bit of a pickle at the moment. Without going to into precise details I get the feeling I am going to be unable to audition a Silver Minimus without committing to actually buying one. I've asked the vendor a few times about this and they seem to be giving somewhat politically-tinged answers that tend to skirt around the subject but don't directly tackle it head on if you know what I mean. It's sort of like when you go through a negotiation process - going in with a clear mind of what you want to end up but you come out and end up with with somewhat less than you wanted yet you are somehow made to appreciate that outcome!

It's a bit disappointing because as I say, I have directly asked a couple of times and thus far really haven't gotten a direct answer. And it is doubly difficult because it seems to me that very few products around (at least in my experience) can so drastically alter the finesse and nuances of an audio system like mixing and matching Entreq products can. The ideal customer-oriented setup would be that a customer gets every possible combo of stuff in the target price range for at least a week (preferably two) and then goes about experimenting. But here in my country the total market is tiny to begin with and I can understand that with a tiny market, that means a tiny distribution which in turn makes loan units a difficult logistic exercise. I've had this problem my entire hifi life down here - there have only been a couple of dealers in the last 30 years I have known that will readily lend you anything and even then I had to build up a long relationship with them before they would do that (I fell in love with Royd Merlins that way - back when we paid the GBP price times x 4!!!). And I have to sing some positive praises of the vendor where it is due - the free upgrade to the Eartha Konstantin over the entry level copper for instance.

I'm even contemplating talking to another distributer or the factory direct to see if there is some way I can demo a Silver at my freight expense both ways. The problem is if I buy a Silver, I can't be sure it will synergise with my system as the copper does. But by many accounts, the difference should suit my system and ought to make it even better and within my budget ceiling. But with such limited funds, I cannot afford to make even one mistake (i.e. buy a box I don't end up wanting or needing).

In an ideal world anyone wanting Entreq products should be able to audition demo models of everything for at least a week, and if another customer wants to buy, they will just have to wait until the first customer is done demoing. Its' how expensive headphones are often auditioned and to be honest, anything is better than having little option than to buy such sound-altering devices upon nothing more than educated (yet possibly dubious nonetheless) guesses, hunches and detective work. It' a bit like buying a car without a test drive, though obviously not with as much of a financial risk (at least for me).

Does anyone know any dealers of Entreq who ship internationally btw? And how is the demoing of trial Entreq products going in other countries? Are you guys getting a fair trail of demo equipment before committing to buy or are you stuck with buying and flipping if it doesn't do the job as you hoped?

 

[justubes]

As much as this product does change the sonics and offer large improvements, to what extent and combination is a very difficult to answer and yes, one should have a test to see if it obtains the improvement for a rather significant outlay.

Shipping for even the small box just isnt economical from your perspective or a dealers and the the margins over the small boxes. as for the large ones, even carrying it from a dealers to your setup is a pain.

The best bet would be to just get just a mini, or silver mini and build around that, i believe it would be much more useful from a total improvement of your system is being able to loan the better ertha cables and just forget about the bigger boxes as shipping, if both ways, totally impracticable in your situation. Or spend that money improving the system with other tweaks or new components.

Unless you already cant find ways to improve your system, that's where i think looking at the bigger boxes and more cable would fit in. From what i see, the packages to start recommended is the silver mini and apollo cable - guess it is the best bang for buck improvement even over a tellus and copper ertha.

 

[Argonaut]

*

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Herlequin,

Thanks. Interesting comments. I don't like the situation you are in but it is actually worse than mine which makes me feel a bit better in a twisted sort of way (sorry). I've since written to the distributer again offering a compromise - when he gets the Silver box I originally ordered, I get to keep the loan Copper box for a two week overlap. At least that way I will be intimately familiar with how each box performs - both on my hifi setup and my workstation. To me the worst case for him is he does not have possession of the demo box for an extra fortnight. Seeing as I had to wait 3 weeks for my Gigawatt power strip after paying for it, maybe someone else can have a turn of waiting for something to become available :b

justubes,

I agree. These are petty low profit items I am interested in. I guess I should be surprised the vendor is returning my emails at all (this is 75% tongue in cheek comment btw). I agree with the essence of what you are saying.