Entreq Tellus grounding

[spiritofmusic]

Don't get me wrong Spaz, I like a holographic s'stage, but I don't hear it live, and I don't expect to hear it at home.
Stereo is a kind of construct anyway, for me the Holy Grail of a home system should be to try and recreate natural (not euphonic) warmth, and tonal density/integrity.
And get at least some of the excitement/energy of the performance.
The Zus continue to give, and imaging is much better on my system, but the fascinating thing about reconnecting the phono back to Entreq was the removal of cloying grunge, which just allows the message to reach thru the murky ether more truthfully.
And critically, that I'm not some kind of patsy, hearing things when they aren't there, and happy to give my money to charlatan salesmen.
I'll PM you re meeting.

 

[Detlof]

Spaz, would love to pick you up, but got arrested for drunken flying.

 

[DaveC]

E

I like the impression you give of your hifi and I could not give a rusty bollock about HIFI sound stage. Its artificial music killing bollocks. You get that wired urge to get up and clap sometimes? That's what it's about.
GF about for the next week but could sort something out for mid jan a fri afternoon evening or sat. Once your in Norfolk your on your own unless you can talk detlof into picking me up in his plane then we could make some trouble I recon. You got winters audio up their to play with. He has some nice stuff indeed.

That's fine, but the quality of the sound stage says a lot about the overall quality of the system, they go hand-in-hand in many ways.

Anyways, Zus with a big SET amp are going to be a lot of fun to listen to! They can also play very loud.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Can someone answer a question about the RCA connectors please. As some of you may remember, I bought two Minimus boxes earlier this year together with two Eartha Konstantin RCA ground cables. The first box is used in my main audio system (connected to amp) and the second in my audio workstation, so they are not in the same systems.

Since I am not currently using the workstation over the New Year break, however, I decided on a whim to remove the Entreq box and cable from the workstation and connect it to my Rega CD player in the main system. I was very happy with the further improvement in sound it brought to the main system over the existing single box - the improvement was just as good as connecting the original box to the amplifier (I connected the second Entreq box to the un-used SPDIF RCA jack on the Rega since the analogue RCA jacks are taken up).

Problem is though, the spare RCA jack on the Rega is slightly recessed and as a result, the Eartha Konstantin cable cannot achieve sufficient purchase on the jack to remain reliably in place. It will stay there, but only just. The connection is , however, just too tenuous to be a "permanent" one. A fly could breathe on it and it will just fall off. This is something I don't really like that much about the RCA plugs - the connection is not really as secure as a normal "audio" one in my opinion.

That said, am I correct in that Entreq either brought out re-designed RCA connectors a few months back, or otherwise is there some other RCA cable in their range with the "traditional" layout of a 360 degree ground surrounding a centre pin (which I assume has to be electrically isolated)?

If that is the case, I imagine such a connector would work much better than my existing one with the partially recessed Rega jack, since the existing problem is not one of making contact with the ground (otherwise it wouldn't have improved the sound), but one of nothing to hold it in place other than the tension of the wood casing and the small metal "bur" that makes the actual ground connection.

Anyway, if anyone can clarify that would be great. Looks like I will be getting a third box and cable in 2016 now, assuming there is some way to solve this issue (and no, I don't really want to go mucking with chassis connections if at all avoidable, since I would have to add washers to existing chassis bolts and Entreq do not recommend chassis connection for optimal results if it is possible to use a "direct" RCA connection.

Thanks

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Can someone answer a question about the RCA connectors please. As some of you may remember, I bought two Minimus boxes earlier this year together with two Eartha Konstantin RCA ground cables. The first box is used in my main audio system (connected to amp) and the second in my audio workstation, so they are not in the same systems.

Since I am not currently using the workstation over the New Year break, however, I decided on a whim to remove the Entreq box and cable from the workstation and connect it to my Rega CD player in the main system. I was very happy with the further improvement in sound it brought to the main system over the existing single box - the improvement was just as good as connecting the original box to the amplifier (I connected the second Entreq box to the un-used SPDIF RCA jack on the Rega since the analogue RCA jacks are taken up).

Problem is though, the spare RCA jack on the Rega is slightly recessed and as a result, the Eartha Konstantin cable cannot achieve sufficient purchase on the jack to remain reliably in place. It will stay there, but only just. The connection is , however, just too tenuous to be a "permanent" one. A fly could breathe on it and it will just fall off. This is something I don't really like that much about the RCA plugs - the connection is not really as secure as a normal "audio" one in my opinion.

That said, am I correct in that Entreq either brought out re-designed RCA connectors a few months back, or otherwise is there some other RCA cable in their range with the "traditional" layout of a 360 degree ground surrounding a centre pin (which I assume has to be electrically isolated)?

If that is the case, I imagine such a connector would work much better than my existing one with the partially recessed Rega jack, since the existing problem is not one of making contact with the ground (otherwise it wouldn't have improved the sound), but one of nothing to hold it in place other than the tension of the wood casing and the small metal "bur" that makes the actual ground connection.

Anyway, if anyone can clarify that would be great. Looks like I will be getting a third box and cable in 2016 now, assuming there is some way to solve this issue (and no, I don't really want to go mucking with chassis connections if at all avoidable, since I would have to add washers to existing chassis bolts and Entreq do not recommend chassis connection for optimal results if it is possible to use a "direct" RCA connection.

Thanks

I would recommend just using a short RCA extender or maybe a RCA male to male connector like this;



https://www.adafruit.com/products/951?gclid=CP6SqInngsoCFYaCfgodBDkGkw

or

female to female like this....



to extend the RCA into the spot for your RCA input. the Entreq cable will only contact the outer negative ground and won't touch the positive lead.

I could not find a short female rca to male rca for sale; so likely you would need to buy those 2 sets and combine them to make it work if I understand your problem correctly.

likely you won't get 100% of the ideal connection; but it's better than a lose connection that you have to worry about coming off.

and actually the single point connection is better than the whole surround as it's a more positive, solid, connection and is less likely to get buildup eroding the degree of connection.

 

[Barry2013]

Hi FF.
Yes there are new RCA connectors on the latest earth cables which may address your problem but otherwise Mike's advice should solve it.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Hi FF.
Yes there are new RCA connectors on the latest earth cables which may address your problem but otherwise Mike's advice should solve it.

Thanks for the replies Mike and Barry. I'd thought of Mike's suggestion originally but did not really like the idea of adding extenders because tiny changes like that can have significant sonic consequences. Plus it's a bit of an band-aid way around the problem to be honest even though I appreciate the idea and Mike taking the time to post it. But I regard these types of Entreq connections as being similar in sonic importance to terminations on normal cables where everything matters. Yes, I would consider it but only if I had to and there was no other option.

Barry,

Has every single model in the Earth range been updated with the new connector? I really find the Entreq website incredibly confusing which is why I asked the question. The website seems to be a mish-mash of old and new photos and even the July 2015 news update on the website where they showcase "Series II" confuses me (since there is a picture of two connectors there - one looks like a "proper" RCA with what seems like a rubber O-ring and the other picture shows an RCA like mine (and which does not like some RCA jacks like the one on my Rega). And then the pictures of the cables elsewhere are confusing too - the Eartha Challenger, Konstantin and Copper photos show RCAs that look like mine whereas the Eartha Silver cable photo shows an RCA that looks like a normal RCA but without that O-ring.

So I've seen three different RCA connectors in the Entreq range (excluding the types that have a second 3.5 "drain") and I remain completely confused as to what is "new", what is "old" and whether some cables are "old" or whether all - regardless of the photos are "new". And I don't even know what "new" means!!

Or to put it much more simply, does Entreq now produce an Eartha Konstantin RCA to spade cable with the RCA connector looking like the one in the July 2015 update with the centre pin and O-ring? Because if they do, that is what I want (I realise you may not know the answer but someone involved officially with Entreq should I hope).

 

[Barry2013]

Thanks FF.
Yes the Entreq site could be better though it has improved in recent months.
I am pretty certain that the July 2015 update you refer to is the current model and that the Konstantin earth cable spade to RCA is so configured and your dealer should be able to confirm that.
I should have an Apollo earth cable with that configuration arriving soon for my word clock but that will be the first spade to RCA earth cable I have bought since the update.
As you say that would be the better solution and in the meantime could you firm up the current connection with a temporary fix with a rubber band/sellotape fix to hold it in more firmly?

 

[Detlof]

Would somebody please explain to me the difference between chassis-and signal grounding in those cases when the neg. side of the signal is tied to the chassis? All the talk of the importance of signal grounding, especially in the cases I have in mind here, seems to me nothing but clever sales talk by POF. I also suspect, that the vagueness of his literature, icl. his lousy English is intended. An honest, simply nordic farmer who stumbled on an idea, which in fact is not even his. I especially love his advice to wait until the slowly evolving improvements can be clearly heard and not to switch to and fo in some a+b testing for quite obvious reasons. In time the ear will adapt to anything.Idem for his advice to put his stuff on footers. He's teamed up with Stillpoints.
In spite of these grumblings let me state, that this stuff works. I like it, but I have difficulty with the man, simply because I suspect that he tries to sell me for a fool. I've bought his stuff inspite of his BS talk, I've bought it, because I respect those people here who have had success with his gear.

 

[DaveC]

Blutac?

Use mortite / rope caulk instead. Better damping characteristics...

 

[DaveC]

Would somebody please explain to me the difference between chassis-and signal grounding in those cases when the neg. side of the signal is tied to the chassis? All the talk of the importance of signal grounding, especially in the cases I have in mind here, seems to me nothing but clever sales talk by POF. I also suspect, that the vagueness of his literature, icl. his lousy English is intended. An honest, simply nordic farmer who stumbled on an idea, which in fact is not even his. I especially love his advice to wait until the slowly evolving improvements can be clearly heard and not to switch to and fo in some a+b testing for quite obvious reasons. In time the ear will adapt to anything.Idem for his advice to put his stuff on footers. He's teamed up with Stillpoints.
In spite of these grumblings let me state, that this stuff works. I like it, but I have difficulty with the man, simply because I suspect that he tries to sell me for a fool. I've bought his stuff inspite of his BS talk, I've bought it, because I respect those people here who have had success with his gear.

I've mentioned it quite a few times but I'm not sure it's understood.

The truth is grounding boxes work because there are no standards and even worse, a lot of misunderstandings about grounding and so different components often have different grounding schemes, some of which are not compatible with each other. For example, you may have gear where the signal and chassis ground are isolated by one of several methods, and one piece of gear where the signal and chassis grounds are directly connected. The component with the direct connection also makes every single other signal ground directly connected to this components chassis through the interconnect cable's ground connections, effective ruining the attempted isolation, and even worse depending on the interconnect ground wire to be of sufficiently low resistance to not cause too much SCIN, or shield current induced noise. In this case the interconnect cables are going to have a huge impact on the system's noise. And in this case the grounding box is going to help with this issue by reducing the impedance of the grounds between components, thus reducing noise and increasing the ability to perceive fine detail. The grounding box also implements a piezo-electric filter on the ground connection, which might prevent noise in your safety ground system from getting into your audio components. So does a $2 Shurter DINO...

I think it's very likely you can get as good results using welding cables to connect your components to a copper bar, along with some inductive filtering for the ground.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Thanks for the replies guys. I can clarify some things as Entreq themselves got back to me tonight. The new RCA connector is the one with the single "bur" or copper tag that connects to the RCA jack ground and it does not have the centre pin. I thought it was the other way around - that the new style had the centre pin but it is the opposite. So my cables are actually the "new" style, not the old.

As for the confusion on the Entreq website, unfortunately they inform me the photographer has been ill for some time and is having a slow recovery, hence the lack of updates and the confusion it is causing. We all hope he / she will get better soon.

I guess I will have to investigate the three possibilities mentioned now. Extending the jack, grounding via chassis and the temporary mechanical "assistive" adhesives of one description or another. I'd probably prefer to try chassis grounding and maybe if my dealer is cooperative I could try a different grade of chassis cable (say Challenger or Silver) that will mitigate the supposed inferiority of this grounding method compared to the RCA jack using Konstantin. I realise I can't really use any semi permanent adhesives since I then would have difficultly opening the unit to service it (and these modern Regas as great as they and as wonderful as they sound actually use rather simple and economical Sanyo transports - I've got a box full of genuine OEM Sanyo ones for future repairs since I never wish to replace the player - my first transport lasted 2 years before the laser died).

Blu-tac is too weak and there is no real way to fasten it by any other means because of the way the back panel is designed. As I say, I think I just need the dealer to help me out here and let me demo higher grade cables that I can connect to one of the chassis bolts.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

All the talk of the importance of signal grounding, especially in the cases I have in mind here, seems to me nothing but clever sales talk by POF. I also suspect, that the vagueness of his literature, icl. his lousy English is intended.

It really would be far easier for you just to go to an Entreq dealer and ask to borrow some demo equipment and try it. Throughout this thread there are too many respectable people who have tried it and been blown away. This gear was one of the best upgrades I have ever made. Even just connecting one box and cable to my CD player yesterday was similar to the difference on my audio workstation between dithering to 20 bits versus 16 bits. And that is significant I can tell you - it affords a tangible improvement by way of more precision, inner detail, focus and clarity. No one here can pretend to be an expert on any or all theories behind how it works, but it works and for most of us here that is all that matters, since thankfully this website tends to be patronised by members who are more subjective than objective in terms of formulating opinions relating to audio gear. I would go as far as to say that the only people seemingly dissatisfied with the products this company produces are the ones who haven't actually tried them! Even for people who have tried them and were initially unimpressed or luke-warm about them have nevertheless found a combination of boxes and cables that will work - this equipment is all about matching and synergy. The most expensive products they offer are not necessarily the best in every system. My system did not like the silver boxes but loves the copper for example.

I think the fact that they state on the Entreq website that their most expensive stuff is not necessarily the best and that the cheapest stuff may actually work best says something for their ethics.

 

[Detlof]

It really would be far easier for you just to go to an Entreq dealer and ask to borrow some demo equipment and try it. Throughout this thread there are too many respectable people who have tried it and been blown away. This gear was one of the best upgrades I have ever made. Even just connecting one to my CD player yesterday was similar to the difference on my audio workstation between dithering to 20 bits versus 16. And that is significant I can tell you. No one here can pretend to be an expert on theory behind how it works, but it works and for most of us that is all that matters. I would go as far as to say that the only people seemingly dissatisfied with the products this company produces are the ones who haven't actually tried them!

FF from your posts I have read so far, i respected and liked what you said. In this, our case here I'd wish you had read my post to its end instead of given me that sort of advice which does not help me along. In fact, you could have supposed, that I had thought of such simplicities myself.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

FF from your posts I have read so far, i respected and liked what you said. In this, our case here I'd wish you had read my post to its end instead of given me that sort of advice which does not help me along. In fact, you could have supposed, that I had thought of such simplicities myself.

I did read your post to the end. Bit based on your caustic attitude towards both myself and the man behind Entreq, I now wish I hadn't bothered at all.

 

[Detlof]

I've mentioned it quite a few times but I'm not sure it's understood.

The truth is grounding boxes work because there are no standards and even worse, a lot of misunderstandings about grounding and so different components often have different grounding schemes, some of which are not compatible with each other. For example, you may have gear where the signal and chassis ground are isolated by one of several methods, and one piece of gear where the signal and chassis grounds are directly connected. The component with the direct connection also makes every single other signal ground directly connected to this components chassis through the interconnect cable's ground connections, effective ruining the attempted isolation, and even worse depending on the interconnect ground wire to be of sufficiently low resistance to not cause too much SCIN, or shield current induced noise. In this case the interconnect cables are going to have a huge impact on the system's noise. And in this case the grounding box is going to help with this issue by reducing the impedance of the grounds between components, thus reducing noise and increasing the ability to perceive fine detail. The grounding box also implements a piezo-electric filter on the ground connection, which might prevent noise in your safety ground system from getting into your audio components. So does a $2 Shurter DINO...

I think it's very likely you can get as good results using welding cables to connect your components to a copper bar, along with some inductive filtering for the ground.

Thank you Dave, that helped! I want to understand what my ears tell me and why. I know that these boxes work for me and with others here, but it seems that, especially in view of all that sales bullocks, I cannot just "believe" in what I hear, at least not in this case.

 

[Detlof]

I did read your post to the end. Bit based on your caustic attitude towards both myself and the man behind Entreq, I now wish I hadn't bothered at all.

FF, I still do like most of what you have to say, but in this our unfortunate encounter, I also wish you hadn't bothered.
i own Enteqs and I like what they do, I don't like the man's sales pitch. Sorry if I irked you, I felt being patronised and that gets my back up. Peace.

 

[mauidan]

Thank you Dave, that helped! I want to understand what my ears tell me and why. I know that these boxes work for me and with others here, but it seems that, especially in view of all that sales bullocks, I cannot just "believe" in what I hear, at least not in this case.

Suggest you read Atmosphere's posts in this thread:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/entreq-ground-conditioners-what-s-the-theory?highlight=entreq

 

[Barry2013]

I've mentioned it quite a few times but I'm not sure it's understood.

The truth is grounding boxes work because there are no standards and even worse, a lot of misunderstandings about grounding and so different components often have different grounding schemes, some of which are not compatible with each other. For example, you may have gear where the signal and chassis ground are isolated by one of several methods, and one piece of gear where the signal and chassis grounds are directly connected. The component with the direct connection also makes every single other signal ground directly connected to this components chassis through the interconnect cable's ground connections, effective ruining the attempted isolation, and even worse depending on the interconnect ground wire to be of sufficiently low resistance to not cause too much SCIN, or shield current induced noise. In this case the interconnect cables are going to have a huge impact on the system's noise. And in this case the grounding box is going to help with this issue by reducing the impedance of the grounds between components, thus reducing noise and increasing the ability to perceive fine detail. The grounding box also implements a piezo-electric filter on the ground connection, which might prevent noise in your safety ground system from getting into your audio components. So does a $2 Shurter DINO...

I think it's very likely you can get as good results using welding cables to connect your components to a copper bar, along with some inductive filtering for the ground.

Thank you Dave for explaining the signal/chassis grounding issues so well.

 

[Barry2013]

I am sure all of us would like to understand how everything that delivers benefits actually works, but I long since gave that up and accepted that their are lots of areas where my knowledge is and is likely to remain limited. So in those areas I stick to an old adage that the proof of the pudding is in the eating and spare myself a lot of frustration. Improves my quality of life!
I'm not sure why you choose to single out Entreq's marketing when the same applies to many other audio producers. It has always been there and I can't see it ending.
My understanding is that PO's background is as an engineer which would make sense and I really don't think it's appropriate to keep referring to him as a Swedish farmer with all the implicit implications that has.
His products work very well as you have clearly acknowledged so just enjoy them