Entreq Tellus grounding

[microstrip]

(...) And, just repeating Morrison, some recipes almost 20 years old are not enough, specially considering the much higher extreme quality we can get now from stereo systems.

Why would you think that? Good Engineering Practice is always good engineering practice. More than a few of the high end audiophile practice don't come close to following 'Good Engineering Practice's'.

Now that balanced analog interconnects (although hi-fi products often do them incorrectly) and digital interconnects are becoming popular the magnitude of power system problems as been reduced.

Yes, Good Engineering Practice is always good engineering practice. But sometimes we need more than just that. Your statement that Now that balanced analog interconnects and digital interconnects are becoming popular the magnitude of the power problems have been reduced just shows the danger of excessive Good Engineer Practice. Some of the best systems I have listened to were single ended systems. Many good engineers refer that domestic audio systems do not need balanced analog interconnects because the distances are too short and the systems have low complexity.

Please do not consider that I am endorsing that Poor Engineering Practice is needed for good sound quality. I am just considering that very often practical life needs compromises.

I can not forget that the people who follow mainly Good Engineering Practice have concluded and proved long ago that we should forget about stereo and migrate to multichannel.

 

[microstrip]

Some interesting Henry W. Ott papers:

Ground- A Path For Current Flow
http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/ground.pdf


[SIZE=+1]Balanced vs. Unbalanced Audio System Interconnections
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/Audio%20Interconnections.pdf[/SIZE][SIZE=+1][/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]His 875 page book:[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]It's not all that difficult to read.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering

http://www.hottconsultants.com/book.html
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]

Perhaps we should revive the old WBF thread "What would you consider the best outdoor non-gas grill? " and post there a few links of simple books on Thermodynamics?

 

[Barry2013]

Good Day Folks.

I have only recently become aware of the Entreq range of products, and, having journeyed through this Opus of a thread, I would be most grateful for a little sage advice as to optimising a 'starter' kit that would best suit my current system.

I have gleaned thus far, that , in the first instance, paying attention to the Pre Amplifier is the way to go, and to that end I have in mind a single Silver Telus, connected to an ARC Ref5se, via a pair of Atlantis RCA's. However connecting to the signal line of the CDP and Amplifier would appear to be not quite as straight forward as neither piece of equipment sports any additional Line level connection , either RCA or XLR.
Would I be correct in assuming that the only way to connect them with the Telus would be via a grounding point ?

Jasper.

Hi Jasper.
The Entreq boxes and cables are designed to operate in the signal plane and if your amp/preamp do not have any spare line connections there's a problem. There has been some discussion on this thread about using the Silver Tellus/ground cables for chassis grounding but I can't recall anybody having successfully tried that.
There are however other options. First ground your source components with a Silver Tellus and Apollo or Atlantis ground cables. You should get a significant and noticeable improvement. As for the amps there is also the Receivus which you can place on top of your amps and connect to a Silver Tellus with Apollo or Atlantis spade to spade ground cables. I have one on my amp and it works. It hoovers up the EMI/RFI generated by the amp. Ll21 has three or four in his system and he is very happy with them, In the UK the Receivus retails for £400 plus the cost of the earth cable.
Hope that helps and good luck.
Barry

 

[LL21]

Hi Jasper.
The Entreq boxes and cables are designed to operate in the signal plane and if your amp/preamp do not have any spare line connections there's a problem. There has been some discussion on this thread about using the Silver Tellus/ground cables for chassis grounding but I can't recall anybody having successfully tried that.
There are however other options. First ground your source components with a Silver Tellus and Apollo or Atlantis ground cables. You should get a significant and noticeable improvement. As for the amps there is also the Receivus which you can place on top of your amps and connect to a Silver Tellus with Apollo or Atlantis spade to spade ground cables. I have one on my amp and it works. It hoovers up the EMI/RFI generated by the amp. Ll21 has three or four in his system and he is very happy with them, In the UK the Receivus retails for £400 plus the cost of the earth cable.
Hope that helps and good luck.
Barry

Agree...this seems sound to me. Good luck. I think you will have an excellent chance at really finding the Entreq to do great things in your system as you have described it...ie, preamp, and potentially source. Some distirbutors will actually say dont go crazy grounding everything...grounding 2 key components is plenty and gives a great uplift in performance.

Hope that is true for you.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jasper, just my 2 cents. The biggest bang-for-buck in my system has been grounding the preamp. If that is the only option available for you re lack of spare input/output jacks on other components, then you can just stick w/this component and get excellent results. It seems that the preamp is the heart of any system, and a lot is happening w/this component, grounding it being the most relevant box to get right.
In my system grounding the pre has produced the biggest +ves, so much so that I've kept my pair of Apollos from my Audion dual mono linestage to separate terminal posts on my S. Tellus, and am seriously contemplating the Olympos Minimus just for my Audion.
This will be an interesting dilemma for you - if your preamp is really going to be the only component you can ground via Entreq signal plane grounding, do you go 4-terminal S. Tellus or 1-terminal Olympos Minimus, knowing the latter is a supercharged grounding solution designed primarily for preamps?
I would try both if you can, but you won't go wrong w/S. Tellus.

 

[Argonaut]

Gentlemen, thank you for your considerations and for your advice.
I am in the midst of a change on the amplification front and a home demo shall be high priority, once, the dust from that has settled.

 

[catcando]

Hi Jasper.
There has been some discussion on this thread about using the Silver Tellus/ground cables for chassis grounding but I can't recall anybody having successfully tried that.
Barry

See posts 366,375,377,381,385.

 

[TBG]

Its been almost a year since I have had the Entreq and Troy in my system and thought I would share my two cents and lessons learned since my previous post. The most significant aspect I learned is that the cable is a critical item and tantamount to performance, and although I have two apollo cables I never was succesful in being able to exceed the soundstage and performance of the basic copper cable which I initially started off with. The two apollos along with seven copper cables (I initially was attempting to ground everything) and two tripoint cables currently reside on a shelf for trial and error testing purposes but the current configuration of one copper (RCA/S) to the preamp (two cables to preamp didn't work) running to the entreq (which I could easily live with by itself) along with two tripoint cables running from the amp grounds and connected to the troy greatly surpassed any other interconnecting/combination I tried. As such, the current configuration is only three cables being run and I couldn't be happier with the performance. As others have stated, it is important to not have the cables lying on the floor, in contact with interconnects or power cables, or even touching the equipment chasis when being run to the Entreq or Troy, and I try to use a RCA jack on the preamp closest to the Entreq for the ground cable run to minimize proximity to any interconnect running to the preamp, as well. Mixing cable types (copper and silver) as well as having multiple cables running to a single ground post poduced mixed results but in general did not perform well. I also, removed extraneous grounds to the house electrical grounding system (i.e. running to the ground rods...which are very easy and cheap to install by the way) which were no longer required (yes it does make a difference). I also attempted to ground my equipment racks which did produce a noticeable change but ultimately went back to the configuration where I am at now. All in all I could not be happier with the grounding products, but do have to caution about cable selection, as surprisingly more expensive is not always better, although I would like to give a RCA Konstantin and Challenger cable a try at some point. It could be that my system doesn't like silver cables to the entreq box, not sure, but I am glad I started with a copper cable and didn't go with an apollo as first planned or I never would have know that the basic introductory copper cable was better in my system.

Please look at my comments on the Troy thread about the impact of Tripoint Troy SE grounding cables.

 

[1kitch]

Please look at my comments on the Troy thread about the impact of Tripoint Troy SE grounding cables.

Thanks TBG. I am currently catching up on the Troy thread and still have about 10 pages to go, although I did review your comments regarding your new SE cables, to which I have no experience, as the only Troy cables I use are the signature ones which came with the unit. However, with that said, I did try to use the Troy cables as a signal ground (not a true test per se as I wrapped a piece of small gauge copper wire around the spade to encircle the RCA barrel, and used the same concept when I tried grounding the racks), but still preferred the base copper RCA signal cable running to the Entreq for signal grounding. Also tried the Entreq RCA copper signal cable going to the Troy and went back to having signal grounds (preamp only now) going to the Entreq, and the amp chassis grounds going to the Troy. Also tried the amp chassis grounds to the Entreq (with both the Troy cables as well as the Enteq copper spade to spade ground cables) and still preferred the current combination by a large margin. I have also probably tried every other combination, amongst all my equipment, at some point or another, as it is easy to experiment and a joy as well. But to be completely honest...I have not tried grounding the dog when she is in close proximity to the system, as she has likely generated some static electricity at one time or another gallivanting around the house...

 

[rockitman]

Another data point...a friend of mine has had a silver Tellus and 2 atlantis cables plugged into in Lamm ref (4 chassis) preamp for 3 days. He has ML3's powering his Verity Longrens. He also has a custom sub panel with a moat of custom ground rods surrounding his home. He was pleasantly surprised at the improvement in line with what myself and others are experiencing. This data point can put to rest that earth grounding does not accomplish what signal grounding does via Entreq.

Domenico... I'm sure you know who I am talking about.

 

[LL21]

Another data point...a friend of mine has had a silver Tellus and 2 atlantis cables plugged into in Lamm ref (4 chassis) preamp for 3 days. He has ML3's powering his Verity Longrens. He also has a custom sub panel with a moat of custom ground rods surrounding his home. He was pleasantly surprised at the improvement in line with what myself and others are experiencing. This data point can put to rest that earth grounding does not accomplish what signal grounding does via Entreq.

Domenico... I'm sure you know who I am talking about.

Interesting feedback...thanks for that.

 

[dmnc02]

Another data point...a friend of mine has had a silver Tellus and 2 atlantis cables plugged into in Lamm ref (4 chassis) preamp for 3 days. He has ML3's powering his Verity Longrens. He also has a custom sub panel with a moat of custom ground rods surrounding his home. He was pleasantly surprised at the improvement in line with what myself and others are experiencing. This data point can put to rest that earth grounding does not accomplish what signal grounding does via Entreq.

Domenico... I'm sure you know who I am talking about.

Yes, the guy who lives in the castle surrounded by 24 ground rods

 

[TBG]

Measuring the resistance or low frequency impedance of a stake in the dirt (ground rod) is not inexpensive or easy. The measurement sometimes required by electrical code or building code requires a test instrument that is almost $3000 and maybe 1/2 hour time. Even after making this measurement we know that the value will change with time and weather conditions. But luckily this connection to Mother Earth is all about safety and from an audio system point of view has nothing to with power quality.

When I asked my city's utilities department about the grounding rod, they were only concerned that the fire department could easily remove the connection from the house to the ground rod. Also they wanted but did not say they enforced that the resistance to ground in the electrical system was less than that in the water system.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Christian, thank the LORD i can put away my shovel and cancel the install of those 24 ground rods - i SO wasn't looking fwds to that ! Maybe a little more Entreq will prove a TAD more practical :b.

 

[microstrip]

When I asked my city's utilities department about the grounding rod, they were only concerned that the fire department could easily remove the connection from the house to the ground rod. Also they wanted but did not say they enforced that the resistance to ground in the electrical system was less than that in the water system.

I can easily understand the second requirement, but what is the technical reason behind the need for an easy removal? My house also has such box, but I thought it was meant to allow an easy measurement point.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, the guy who lives in the castle surrounded by 24 ground rods

A difficult question - how many ground loops can you create with 24 ground rods?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Micro, ground loops are the LEAST of his problems. More like going 'round the loop re his sanity! Or maybe the Morbius loop he's on, a journey w/no end (v.much how most of us audiophiles feel as we plough more and more into the upgrading bug).

 

[Speedskater]

When I asked my city's utilities department about the grounding rod, they were only concerned that the fire department could easily remove the connection from the house to the ground rod. Also they wanted but did not say they enforced that the resistance to ground in the electrical system was less than that in the water system.

While building inspectors sometimes have strange ideas, most of them have the same strange ideas. But this is a new one. The connection to the grounding system is required to be a permanent connection and is often not accessible after construction is complete. In older city areas that still have an all metal water pipe system, it's resistance to the dirt and more importantly to the power company Neutral will be much lower the almost all stake grounding systems.

 

[Speedskater]

A difficult question - how many ground loops can you create with 24 ground rods?

If the 24 ground rods are correctly installed, that is only one connection to the building AC power system and that connection being at the service entrance, then no ground lops are even possible.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't the positive impressions of the guy w/24 ground rods still getting an upgrade in SQ using Entreq mean something significant? At the v.least Entreq is obv doing something different, since if it was the same, there is no way a small wooden box packed w/wiring/minerals could outperform a frankly OTT SOTA ground rod solution.