What kind of speed variations are we talking about here without clock ? Mike needs to bring out the RoadRunner he has laying around in a drawer somewhere, and give us a measurement before and after external clock !
Esoteric Grandioso T1 turntable arrives; G1X Master Clock coming.
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
I don't think there will be a significant difference. Any simple dac or cd player have no speed variation an almost unmeasurable wow&flutter but an external clock still makes an improvement. IMHO same applies here.What kind of speed variations are we talking about here without clock ? Mike needs to bring out the RoadRunner he has laying around in a drawer somewhere, and give us a measurement before and after external clock !
Esoteric probably implemented a digital circuit to drive the motor or a digital frequency generator for precision cause digital is better in those areas. And no, that doesn't compromise turntable's full analog character. It is still a full analog source.
loaned my counter thing (Roadrunner?) to @jazdoc a couple years ago.What kind of speed variations are we talking about here without clock ? Mike needs to bring out the RoadRunner he has laying around in a drawer somewhere, and give us a measurement before and after external clock !
i now have a second source telling me of significant up tic musically pairing the T1 with the G1X master clock. very significant.
i give the benefit of the doubt to Esoteric, a division of Teac, they have the engineering headroom to take things to a high level. read about the master clock implementation.
i guess my ears will be the judge.
And Esoteric have always loved selling ekstra boxes !
What is happening with a external clock on digital equipment is a totally different ballgame, making a motor hit the right frequency is a lot easier . It will be interesting !
I think there has been a misunderstanding. When I said there won't be any significant difference I meant speed stability, wow&flutter cause the question was about measuring speed, wow&flutter. please read my prior post with the quotation I made from @Lagonda.
On the other hand I do think there will be significant difference in terms of sound. That's why in my prior post I mentioned improvement in sound of a dac with a better clock.
I will check it and I have no doubt about Esoteric's engineering quality. IMHO using digital to control motor is a brilliant idea if that's what they did.
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What kind of speed variations are we talking about here without clock ? Mike needs to bring out the RoadRunner he has laying around in a drawer somewhere, and give us a measurement before and after external clock !
How are you sure that the differences will be due to speed variations?
In fact we know very little about the drive system of the Grandioso T1, just a few general aspects are told.
Induction drive, correct? Aren't there are other TTs out recently also implementing this drive system?
Getting a baseline on speed stability is definitely a good place to start, then you can bring out all your fancy electronic measuring equipment afterwards Francisco !
Transrotor used or still using a similar FMD system which based on magnetic attraction.
or.....maybe....our ears and body reactions. what are our feet and fingers doing? shoulders relaxed? did we forget about what ails us?Getting a baseline on speed stability is definitely a good place to start, then you can bring out all your fancy electronic measuring equipment afterwards Francisco !
that's what i'm talking about.
In the past we could get all these just changing a turntable power cable ...
I hope that soon we will have more technical details on this drive system.
Getting a baseline on speed stability is definitely a good place to start, then you can bring out all your fancy electronic measuring equipment afterwards Francisco !
In fact Monaco Audio had to develop some custom instrumentation to measure the speed stability of their SOTA turntables. Fortunately they documented it and we could understand the system.
I attended the demonstration of Esoteric grand tt at Seoul Audio show with clock in and out.
It was not day and night difference.
But I could notice clearer details, focus and deeper soundstage with clock in.
The difference could be worth the money if you are serious audiophile.
It was not day and night difference.
But I could notice clearer details, focus and deeper soundstage with clock in.
The difference could be worth the money if you are serious audiophile.
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What kind of speed variations are we talking about here without clock ? Mike needs to bring out the RoadRunner he has laying around in a drawer somewhere, and give us a measurement before and after external clock !
Yes, this is one of the interesting questions to ask about this table. As in Mike's pictures the table has a digital readout - the picture shows 33.33. It could be surprising if that changed with the added clock.
To get that readout I wonder what is measured - is it platter speed and if so how is that done? What is the peak deviation from perfect 33 1/3rpm? I'm guessing it is the motor of the magnetic driver that is controlled. How does platter speed inform the motor controller.
Mike you probably don't have strong interest in the technological interior of motor controllers and speed accuracy -- at least that's my guess, no problem. It is just out of curiosity about the technology that I ask about it and wonder if Esoteric engineers will tell us more in terms of specifications with and without the clock.
I don't have a sense that stable accuracy is the ultimate raison dêtre of the table, but rather overall technical excellence with the different drive method as the attractant. And of course, the resulting sound.
Nonetheless, Esoteric says: "Accommodating a patent-registered unique contact-free drive mechanism, the “Esoteric MagneDrive System”, that inductively synchronizes the rotations of a magnetic driver and platter, realizing a quiet and silky-smooth rotation at an extraordinarily accurate rotation speed."
And "Absolutely precise platter rotation, free from any irregularities of speed, potentially caused by mechanical contacts, such as belt, rim or motor." That does not say there are no speed irregularities, only that if there are, they are not caused by mechnical contact. They do not say directly if the clock matters to that description.
Specs say:
| Rotation speed adjustment range | ±12% (0.1% step) |
I wonder how that would be used.
Vinyl abides. Interesting different technology marches on.
sorry this is just a tease at this point. i've seen some third party data on this; the T1 is right there with the "best" regarding speed data without the clock.
OTOH have no idea whether the clock will change the data or not. it could. i've not yet seen data with the clock.
you are correct in that i'm not fully focused on the tech issues and the deep how and why. but i do have an interest in it to some degree and appreciate the consequences of great execution. it's a very interesting product from a first time tt builder.
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It would be interesting to hook up the road runner tachometer which takes the speed measurement to another decimal place (33.333). The 33.33 digital readout on the turntable may not be enough to show any change with the clock. On the other hand, the clock may be doing other things in terms of reducing noise and vibration, allowing the motor to run smother and quieter, which then is audible as something different from speed accuracy and consistency. I agree this additional clock and what it actually does is pretty intriguing.
One would think if Esoteric was so into the speed accuracy with and w/o the clock the displayed speed would be at least .xxx or more.
There is a built in clock in your AS 2000 controller too Peter, it uses digital technology
to maintain a stable electrical power."The unit uses an Atmel AT89C52 microprocessor to control the DDS circuit, the display and accept commands from the user. The clock source for the microprocessor is an 8.388608MHz crystal oscillator with a frequency stability of .01% (100 PPM) and also serves as the reference source for the DDS."Phoenix
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