Esoteric Grandioso T1 turntable arrives; G1X Master Clock coming.

[Mike Lavigne]

If you have it, flaunt it !

watch this video at the 4 minute mark where they comment on adding the clock. they are quick to point out that there are limitations to the extra precision added, but that the effect is useful. they are intellectually modest. i've worked with Honda for 43 years, they are the same. they let their work speak for them.

 

[Lagonda]

watch this video at the 4 minute mark where they comment on adding the clock. they are quick to point out that there are limitations to the extra precision added, but that the effect is useful. they are intellectually modest. i've worked with Honda for 43 years, they are the same. they let their work speak for them.

Very cool ! Damned , i want one now !

 

[PeterA]

There is a built in clock in your AS 2000 controller too Peter, it uses digital technology to maintain a stable electrical power."The unit uses an Atmel AT89C52 microprocessor to control the DDS circuit, the display and accept commands from the user. The clock source for the microprocessor is an 8.388608MHz crystal oscillator with a frequency stability of .01% (100 PPM) and also serves as the reference source for the DDS."

Phoenix

www.turntablepsu.com

Yes, I have taken apart the motor housing to inspect the various parts. I have played around with the voltage and frequency adjustments to listen for differences, smoothness in operation, etc. With the larger separate Esoteric component box, I thought perhaps something additional is happening. I will be curious to read what Mike discovers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I assume that all SOTA tables have very precise speed stability. With all due respect, did you hear any differences?

relative to my current tt's, which are all outstanding on speed and flow, as far as i can tell the Esoteric T1, in stock form, is a cut above my others as it is now. but i don't have my reference arms and cartridges mounted so my perceptions are provisional for another month until i get the arm boards from Esoteric to mount my arms.

and certainly i do hear musically significant speed differences between my turntables, including the now departed Saskia. these are not issues of good/bad, more complimentary to particular music.....other than warm up kinda things.

 

[trekpilot]

Yes, I have taken apart the motor housing to inspect the various parts. I have played around with the voltage and frequency adjustments to listen for differences, smoothness in operation, etc. With the larger separate Esoteric component box, I thought perhaps something additional is happening. I will be curious to read what Mike discovers.

Peter,
Did you notice any differences when you did make adjustments to the voltage and frequency ? I built the DIY version of this speed controller that Bill made available on the DIY audio forums but I never played around with any of the adjustments.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[PeterA]

Peter,
Did you notice any differences when you did make adjustments to the voltage and frequency ? I built the DIY version of this speed controller that Bill made available on the DIY audio forums but I never played around with any of the adjustments.

Thanks,
Scott

Hi Scott,

I use the frequency adjustment to control speed when playing with the thread tension between motor and platter to get back to correct speed. The looser the thread tension, the more the platter speeds up. The tighter the thread tension the more the platter slows down. It’s a bit counterintuitive because if I simply cut the thread and let the platter spin it will spin for over half an hour very gradually slowing down. I think what is going on is it when there is tighter thread tension, the motor and platter or coupled together more and the sheer mass of the platter is slowing down the motor which then slows down the speed according to the tachometer. The motor is turning faster with tighter thread tension so when you loosen the thread gradually the platter actually speeds up. I go back-and-forth loosening the thread and adjusting the frequency to maintain 33.333 while listening and then stopping when I reach the most natural sound.

The belt tension makes a clear audible difference. Playing with voltage affects the torque and drive which becomes more important when the belt is looser but it does not seem to affect speed. More torque creates slightly more noise in the motor but I don’t know if it’s audible through the thread and platter. I have separated the motor from the main turntable chassis and isolated each under the steel plates so the only contact and influence of one over the other is the loose thread. Transients can become slightly softer or harder which affects the sense of clarity The torque does affect the sense of drive and is heard when listening for nuance and micro dynamics and decays/harmonics, basically how natural it sounds.

These are subtle effects which I would likely not have noticed in my old system which did not have the resolution necessary to hear these changes. It all has to do with the relationship between the motor and the platter and the influence and control one has over the other. My platter has an extreme amount of inertia because of its 150 lbs mass plus extremely low friction bearing, so I am trying to reduce the influence of the motor on the platter for a more natural sound with less mechanical signature.

 

[trekpilot]

Hi Scott,

I use the frequency adjustment to control speed when playing with the thread tension between motor and platter to get back to correct speed. The looser the thread tension, the more the platter speeds up. The tighter the thread tension the more the platter slows down. It’s a bit counterintuitive because if I simply cut the thread and let the platter spin it will spin for over half an hour very gradually slowing down. I think what is going on is it when there is tighter thread tension, the motor and platter or coupled together more and the sheer mass of the platter is slowing down the motor which then slows down the speed according to the tachometer. The motor is turning faster with tighter thread tension so when you loosen the thread gradually the platter actually speeds up. I go back-and-forth loosening the thread and adjusting the frequency to maintain 33.333 while listening and then stopping when I reach the most natural sound.

The belt tension makes a clear audible difference. Playing with voltage affects the torque and drive which becomes more important when the belt is looser but it does not seem to affect speed. More torque creates slightly more noise in the motor but I don’t know if it’s audible through the thread and platter. I have separated the motor from the main turntable chassis and isolated each under the steel plates so the only contact and influence of one over the other is the loose thread. Transients can become slightly softer or harder which affects the sense of clarity The torque does affect the sense of drive and is heard when listening for nuance and micro dynamics and decays/harmonics, basically how natural it sounds.

These are subtle effects which I would likely not have noticed in my old system which did not have the resolution necessary to hear these changes. It all has to do with the relationship between the motor and the platter and the influence and control one has over the other. My platter has an extreme amount of inertia because of its 150 lbs mass plus extremely low friction bearing, so I am trying to reduce the influence of the motor on the platter for a more natural sound with less mechanical signature.

I have a stand alone motor assembly so I'll adjust belt tension to achieve the fastest speed the adjust the freq. to get to33.33 rpm. I think in my case too much tension puts too much of a load on the motor bearings thus slowing the platter down. I'm going to find my manual and play around with different voltages. Thanks for the info!

Scott

 

[PeterA]

Mike will have the ability to adjust the magnetic “tension” between his motor and platter adjusting the distance between the two. I suspect this will change the amount of influence one has over the other. It will be interesting to read Mike describe the sonic affect on the music of adjusting this parameter.

Idler and direct drive designs have a very direct connection between motor and platter so one influences the other and it’s a factor on the sound. I think that is why the degree and method of speed correction is more easily heard on the music. Some belt drive turntable designs and I suppose Mike’s turntable allow for some adjustability of this degree of influence of the motor on the platter and vice versa. It allows for fine tuning of the sound at least regarding this parameter.

 

[allvinyl]

Yes, this is one of the interesting questions to ask about this table. As in Mike's pictures the table has a digital readout - the picture shows 33.33. It could be surprising if that changed with the added clock.

To get that readout I wonder what is measured - is it platter speed and if so how is that done? ....

I wonder what differences would be noted if the display had an additional place of precision?

It's just one aspect I appreciate about the simple but effective SOTA/Phoenix Engineering drive system. With a sensor on the platter's bottom edge the system measures platter speed per rotation to 3 places of precision.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

For accuracy of turntable platter (not motor) speed doesn't Grand Prix Audio on their Monaco V2 TT and soon to be their Monaco V3 TT have the best speed accuracy in the hifi industry ?

 

[mtemur]

I wonder what differences would be noted if the display had an additional place of precision?

It's just one aspect I appreciate about the simple but effective SOTA/Phoenix Engineering drive system. With a sensor on the platter's bottom edge the system measures platter speed per rotation to 3 places of precision.

I’m not sure if roadrunner displays sensor readouts or mean value of a certain integration time. In any case there is another easy way to determine platter speed changes. It’s using an iphone and RPM app. It shows change in speed instantly together with wow&flutter. RPM is not a reliable source for measuring these figures cause it may display speed 33.50rpm when the actual is 33.33rpm. On the other hand it’s results are consistent. Additionally it’s very reliable to detect changes in speed and wow&flutter.

The app is very useful to see instant speed changes but I don’t recommend bothering with calibration in the app. I set up my table for 33.3 and 45rpm using test records and computer software and immediately check the speed with RPM app. Whatever number displayed by the app is the calibrated speed (including cartridge drag). For example using my iphone 12’s accelerometers the RPM app reads 33.54 for 33.33 rpm. YMMV.

BTW wow&flutter figures are double the actual if iphone X and up is used.

RPM - Turntable Speed Accuracy, Philip Broder
https://apps.apple.com/tr/app/rpm-turntable-speed-accuracy/id1030889902?l=tr

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i think that this one is maybe the way to be able to actually compare turntable to turntable speed aspects most effectively besides our ears.

never used it myself, or course. i'm not a serious measuring guy. but some are.

 

[Johan K]

Sometimes I pitch my SL-1200G up or down for the sheer fun of different sound on the same records…simply because I can.. ( but just sometimes)… and I always have a great time playing records. Audiophilic correct? No not at all, but very fun to play around and still get great effect of it… Crazy..? Yes indeed!!

Take care everybody

/ Jk

 

[mtemur]

i think that this one is maybe the way to be able to actually compare turntable to turntable speed aspects most effectively besides our ears.

never used it myself, or course. i'm not a serious measuring guy. but some are.

Post in thread ''ShaknSpin' and 'ShaknSpin2' Turntable Analysers'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...knspin2-turntable-analysers.36582/post-865418

 

[morricab]

Wheel of Cheese


View attachment 106080

So, it’s basically like a rim drive but rather than a wheel contact it’s magnetic contactless…this might cause some jitter action like gears meshing I would think, whereas a wheel is continuous…this not as magnets attract and repel through the rotation.

i thought at first they did something like Transrotor, where they had three motor belt drive spinning a platter under the main platter that was magnetically driving the main platter above it with a 3 mm gap.

Or like Onkyo, where they made the platter the motor with a linear induction drive. Or Exclusive, which also had a linear induction drive.
However, this seems to be something different again but I don’t see the advantage of it other than no physical contact with the motor.

 

[allvinyl]

I’m not sure if roadrunner displays sensor readouts or mean value of a certain integration time. In any case there is another easy way to determine platter speed changes. It’s using an iphone and RPM app. It shows change in speed instantly together with wow&flutter. RPM is not a reliable source for measuring these figures cause it may display speed 33.50rpm when the actual is 33.33rpm. On the other hand it’s results are consistent. Additionally it’s very reliable to detect changes in speed and wow&flutter.

......

From the Condor PSU manual:
"The tachometer outputs the speed reading once per revolution. The PSU compares this reading to the speed on the display and can make micro-fine adjustments to the output frequency to lock the turntable speed to within ±0.005 RPM. The adjustment is done slowly and evenly over the entire next revolution and is inaudible to the listener (in most cases, the adjustment is <0.0005 RPM per step). The turntable remains on speed independent of the belt tension, bearing oil viscosity, drag from the needle or any other variables that cause the table to drift over time with speed."

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So, it’s basically like a rim drive but rather than a wheel contact it’s magnetic contactless…this might cause some jitter action like gears meshing I would think, whereas a wheel is continuous…this not as magnets attract and repel through the rotation.

part of the picture is the special magnetic bearing which reduces the load of the 19kg pound platter the magnetic wheel sees from 19 kg to 4kg. that keeps the rotation steady. and contributes to quiet rotation by achieving both silky-smooth rotation with high rotational inertia and reduced friction level in an ideal manner.

However, this seems to be something different again but I don’t see the advantage of it other than no physical contact with the motor.

i do think new ideas are hard for people to buy into, but really it's much more the level of execution with an idea that is the magic part. Esoteric has the culture and technical headroom to do that part at a world class level.

hope you get to hear it yourself sometime.

last night i had a Coltrane Evening and played 4 early 60's John Coltrane pressings on the Esoteric. the rock solid horn tone and lack of any niggles was remarkable. world class. on the Crescent cut "Wise One" Trane's nuance and grainless tone was breathtaking. entrancing. very special. and the clock has not yet arrived, neither have my armboards to use my reference arms.

 

[dan31]

My TT has a similar approach in using magnets to make a heavy platter much lighter at the bearing.

I think the magnetic drive is a clever solution and the adjustable gap can increase or decrease the coupling force. I would consider the Esoteric deck a must on anyone’s list at this level and above. I hope Mike continues to enjoy his unique TT.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

yesterday and last night was tape, this morning back to vinyl with the T1 and Audio Technica AT-MC2022 cart.

did Coltrane 'Ballads' earlier, now listening to a 'good' 6 eye OP of Brubeck's 'Time Out'. what i'm impressed with is the neutrality of this cartridge. it nails the higher frequencies in a way i've not heard. the T1 and Ikeda arm are relating lots of energy, but this cartridge nails things and sorts them out with zero dryness or edge or tipped up anything......just music. just such ease and naturalness. the Coltrane horn tone was again so grainless and solid. love me some rim drive idler energy this morning.

i'm not anointing this cartridge in any way, but acknowledging it has moved my personal reference in one aspect of the music to my ears. i can depend on it to tell me exactly what is in the grooves. no more, no less. and not bring non musical distortion with it. and this pressing of Time Out has some stuff that turns to edgy hash on some carts.

 

[Johan K]

yesterday and last night was tape, this morning back to vinyl with the T1 and Audio Technica AT-MC2022 cart.

did Coltrane 'Ballads' earlier, now listening to a 'good' 6 eye OP of Brubeck's 'Time Out'. what i'm impressed with is the neutrality of this cartridge. it nails the higher frequencies in a way i've not heard. the T1 and Ikeda arm are relating lots of energy, but this cartridge nails things and sorts them out with zero dryness or edge or tipped up anything......just music. just such ease and naturalness. the Coltrane horn tone was again so grainless and solid. love me some rim drive idler energy this morning.

i'm not anointing this cartridge in any way, but acknowledging it has moved my personal reference in one aspect of the music to my ears. i can depend on it to tell me exactly what is in the grooves. no more, no less. and not bring non musical distortion with it. and this pressing of Time Out has some stuff that turns to edgy hash on some carts.

Hi Mike,
Sound wonderful to hear you talk about your impressions… me myself have been listening to music all day (almost) but I never get tired of hearing about other guys music and hifi impressions.. so cool.

Hey Mike - when do you expect your Esoteric clock for the T1 to arrive? It’s getting close now… or..?

/ Jk