Esoteric Grandioso T1 turntable arrives; G1X Master Clock coming.

[Lagonda]

The irony of it all: you have turned the drive of the turntable into a more obvious digital system and therefore as you say on a “nano scale” the data acquisition into a digital system, away from the continuous analog retrieval process. In the old days you would call doing this “dumb it down”. I guess this one slipped by you. So the take away is that in the Esoteric Grandioso T1 turntable system, digital gets “each track moved away from reproduced music toward realism, every track had more inner energy mostly more micro-dynamics, big music was bigger. the ambience and space was more real and defined. spookily so on many cuts. i heard venue info i have never heard before. the sense of musical intent was much stronger, the sense of the players playing together more evident.” Than analog.

I guess that I’m the only one that noticed this great irony? Sorry but it needed to be pointed out. Why didn’t the “Industry Experts” render this point and bring it to the surface? I wonder why!

For the ones pondering this, take a look at the magnetic induction drive system:

View attachment 107254

Discrete torque impulses, a digital drive system before the external clock is even added.

It must be must better in Mike’s ears to brushless DC motors. Time for others to build turntables with stepper-motors as I’m sure this new class will evolve: belt-drive, direct-drive, rim-drive, and now digital-drive.

Carlos, the "continuous analog retrieval process" is never better than the pulsing of the poles inside the drive motor or the fluctuations in the power supply in any drive system !

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Nice Mike ! And add a little expectation bias to the pot ! This is why i would recommend any distributors/manufacturer of very expensive equipment to give Mike the best deal they can put together ! He is the ultimate first mover/influencer in the business ! Now lets see what sticks, i reserve my judgment until you have lived with it, and kept it for about a year !

i agree. how could it not be viewed that way? i'm just a single data point, and only one evening listening. i think a few more T1's will be popping up soon. @plasmod3 above has one, but is waiting on arm boards. not sure about how many clocks are joining the T1's.

Fremer has a T1, and the clock, and his review is due out soon. he has more arm boards and arms in play than i do, and the K3 sitting there to boot.

time will tell.

 

[Lagonda]

i agree. how could it not be viewed that way? i'm just a single data point, and only one evening listening. i think a few more T1's will be popping up soon. @plasmod3 above has one, but is waiting on arm boards. not sure about how many clocks are joining the T1's.

Fremer has a T1, and the clock, and his review is due out soon. he has more arm boards and arms in play than i do, and the K3 sitting there to boot.

time will tell.

I trust your ears and system/room much more than Fremers anyway !

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, the "continuous analog retrieval process" is never better than the pulsing of the poles inside the drive motor or the fluctuations in the power supply in any drive system !

But what the belt or string drive systems do is attempt to decouple the pulsing of the poles from the platter. That’s how belt and string drive was initially preferred to direct drive systems.

In the Esoteric drive system, it is the air gap or magnetic induction mechanism that works to decouple the pulses, but this is adjustable, from a direct drive like to belt drive like and beyond. But this does not negate the fact that this is a digital drive system, even more so, obvious, with the external clock.

 

[morricab]

The irony of it all: you have turned the drive of the turntable into a more obvious digital system and therefore as you say on a “nano scale” the data acquisition into a digital system, away from the continuous analog retrieval process. In the old days you would call doing this “dumb it down”. I guess this one slipped by you. So the take away is that in the Esoteric Grandioso T1 turntable system, digital gets “each track moved away from reproduced music toward realism, every track had more inner energy mostly more micro-dynamics, big music was bigger. the ambience and space was more real and defined. spookily so on many cuts. i heard venue info i have never heard before. the sense of musical intent was much stronger, the sense of the players playing together more evident.” Than analog.

I guess that I’m the only one that noticed this great irony? Sorry but it needed to be pointed out. Why didn’t the “Industry Experts” render this point and bring it to the surface? I wonder why!

For the ones pondering this, take a look at the magnetic induction drive system:

View attachment 107254

Discrete torque impulses, a digital drive system before the external clock is even added.

It must be much better in Mike’s ears to brushless DC motors. Time for others to build turntables with stepper-motors, with digital clock inputs, as I’m sure this new class will evolve: belt-drive, direct-drive, rim-drive, and now digital-drive.

I noted that it looks like this discrete magnet push would also be well...discrete rather than more continuous and also the attract/repulse of the magnets might cause a kind of jitter.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Amazing mike! look forward to hooking mine up to the cybershaft to see how it goes. This hobby keeps surprising me again and again

congrats Ian, on your new T1. look forward to your feedback once your arm boards arrive.

 

[Carlos269]

I noted that it looks like this discrete magnet push would also be well...discrete rather than more continuous and also the attract/repulse of the magnets might cause a kind of jitter.

Absolutely, and further to this, magnetic fields have hysteresis, with a lag of magnetic flux density. This may serve to smooth the torque or strengthen the pulse/push depending on how it is applied but in either case may cause “smear” to the impulse response of the platter.

The external clock being an atomic clock reduces the granularity of these impulses to be further imperceptible, but subjects them to the same analysis as that of a digital data stream.

 

[morricab]

But what the belt or string drive systems do is attempt to decouple the pulsing of the poles from the platter. That’s how belt and string drive was initially preferred to direct drive systems.

In the Esoteric drive system, it is the air gap or magnetic induction mechanism that works to decouple the pulses, but this is adjustable, from a direct drive like to belt drive like and beyond. But this does not negate the fact that this is a digital drive system, even more so, obvious, with the external clock.

ironincally, the Japanese did a lot of work on coreless/slotless motor technology to eliminate iron pole cogging and "stepping" behavior to make very smooth and quiet motors that were truly suitable for DD.

 

[Carlos269]

ironincally, the Japanese did a lot of work on coreless/slotless motor technology to eliminate iron pole cogging and "stepping" behavior to make very smooth and quiet motors that were truly suitable for DD.

Yes they did. This is the same system with an air gap magnetic injunction, and for a twist the addition of the external clock to increase the precision of the pulses.

There has always been a great debate on electrical, mechanical, and acoustical coupling: regulated versus unregulated power-supplies, high versus low dampening factor, belt versus direct drive, to couple versus decouple components to platforms or floors, to have the speakers acoustically couple to the room versus decouple from the room. At the end of the day, it is what sounds best to you. There is no silver bullet, no matter how much the big yellow bus chaser try to tell you how the latest next thing is the best and greatest!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I always enjoy reading your adventures in HiFI land/music land.

thanks.

Have you reached Nirvana with your new turntable/clock?

for tt's could be. that is a possibility. the fun part will be the T1/clock <-> RTR ATR/MR 70 shootout. find out who's boss? but i'm getting ahead of myself as there is work to do to optimize both the T1/clock and the ATR/MR 70.

Or will you continue to improve the sound with different tonearm, cartridges? Anyway best of luck.

i have T1 arm boards coming for my Durand Tosca, with the DaVa cartridge, and for the Primary Control FCL, with the Etsuro Gold cartridge. should have those in a few weeks. and those will also allow me to use my LFD phono cables. right now the Ikeda uses a generic DIN phono. the Audio Technica cartridge on the Ikeda seems to be world class, so until i add those other arms and cartridges, and directly compare, i can't say how much step up i will get.

my bigger system question is the effect on my other turntables. i need more time to work through that question. no hurry.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Re Carlos assertion that the Esoteric w clock is "digital" because this jitter reduction makes it digital in how it transcribes, is this the right way of looking at it?

I mean, it's still analog information off the hills and valleys on the vinyl LP. But if this setup digitally optimises playback and info retrieval, can one contend it's a "hybrid" format that Mike and Plasmod are listening to?

A "best of both worlds"?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Re Carlos assertion that the Esoteric w clock is "digital" because this jitter reduction makes it digital in how it transcribes, is this the right way of looking at it?

I mean, it's still analog information off the hills and valleys on the vinyl LP. But if this setup digitally optimises playback and info retrieval, can one contend it's a "hybrid" format that Mike and Plasmod are listening to?

A "best of both worlds"?

lots of very respected tt controllers use clocks. don't understand the tech enough to know whether clocks mean servo for sure, or not. is there always feedback going on with a clock? i just don't know.

i'm personally only concerned with execution, not dogma. and if my tt drive is digital, i'm fine with that. hybrid? ok.

i'll let others with more knowledge debate those finer points.

Esoteric was known for their digital, for their silver disc transport. and they came up with this product. my hat is off to them.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hey, if it sounds good...

 

[marty]

Always thought that would be a good feature for a phono cartridge so it would sound optimum right away. Most of mine have needed to play a side or two to fully warm up.

Completely agree. Not discussed enough. I never listen to an LP until after it has played one side. Best after 2 sides. I don't think it has anything to do with a clock or TT, but compliance of the cartridge suspension/cantilever which stabilizes to the weight imposed on it by the tracking force.

 

[morricab]

lots of very respected tt controllers use clocks. don't understand the tech enough to know whether clocks mean servo for sure, or not. is there always feedback going on with a clock? i just don't know.

i'm personally only concerned with execution, not dogma. and if my tt drive is digital, i'm fine with that. hybrid? ok.

i'll let others with more knowledge debate those finer points.

Esoteric was known for their digital, for their silver disc transport. and they came up with this product. my hat is off to them.

I think a clock doesn't do anything without a feedback loop of some kind (or phaselock loop) to tell if the motor is synched with the clock. There has to be some kind of communication (ie. feedback).

 

[Ron Resnick]

There has always been a great debate on electrical, mechanical, and acoustical coupling: regulated versus unregulated power-supplies, high versus low dampening factor, belt versus direct drive, to couple versus decouple components to platforms or floors, to have the speakers acoustically couple to the room versus decouple from the room. At the end of the day, it is what sounds best to you.

+1

I have my personal theoretical preferences and technical prejudices, but, at the end of the day, I believe very strongly and dispositively that implementation (resulting sound) trumps theory and technicals.

 

[plasmod3]

congrats Ian, on your new T1. look forward to your feedback once your arm boards arrive.

Thanks Mike can't wait for the sat and fcl to go on that's for sure exciting times ahead of us matey

 

[emoonie]

Thanks for that information. Not questioning what you wrote though I'm not sure what it means, so a few questions, please, out of technical curiousity:

What is being measured? Are the numbers about the accuracy of the clock or its crystal? Or are they a measurement of the magnetic rotor? Or a measurement of actual platter speed?

How are the measurements taken? Is there an error correction mechanism or do the claims rely on the clock accuracy?

Hi Tima,
I don't know but my take is that both are referring to clock accuracy without error correction. I realize these measurements may have no bearing on SQ. Implementations are probably completely different. I do think utilizing the superior version right into the product rather than an external upgrade would yield more accurate sonics. Though I'm also fairly certain the external should definitely be an improvement due to less error correction. My opinion is that Wadax is in the most rarefied level (at least when it comes to clocks).

 

[emoonie]

Completely agree. Not discussed enough. I never listen to an LP until after it has played one side. Best after 2 sides. I don't think it has anything to do with a clock or TT, but compliance of the cartridge suspension/cantilever which stabilizes to the weight imposed on it by the tracking force.

Hi Marty,
The only part of the clock I thought was applicable was the preheat feature. It might have something to do with the turntable as that's spinning and causing the heat from friction

 

[Mike Lavigne]

tonight an evening of playing a bunch of my long term 45rpm references on the T1 + G1X clock. you think you know a cut intimately. it's been your companion on so many great sessions. then, you find there is another more musically connected deeper view. kinda blows your mind. your conscious mind already discovered this a few nights ago. you expect it's going to be different. but when your subconscious mind and senses experience the difference on something you had a strong reference, it is a "new, fresh" serendipitous thing. over and over again.

this one i always respected as a sonic event, but i had not really got into the flow of the performance. now it sucks me in and captures me.

who knew?

this weekend i have a few visitors coming. get a few more data points.