Fuse and Cable Directionality

[Kingrex]

But the arrows are for the shield direction, no? Not for the conductor direction.

I would agree with this. I believe my Inakustik cables are directional because the shield is terminated at one end.
I have some genesis interconnect. One end is silver and the other copper. I was told to put the copper at the source and the silver at the load. But I don't know it has anything to do with anything outside being consistent.

Something I have always pondered is this idea a wire burns in and develops a direction. Not sure this is what people mean. When I think of a piece of wire and the crystal boundaries having a grain, I can't conceive of any of that changing over time due to use. Not unless that use resulted in heat. A lot of heat.
I do agree you change the boundaries when you bend a wire. If you bend it back and forth enough times, it will snap in half. So yes you have changed the structure.

 

[audiom3]

But the arrows are for the shield direction, no? Not for the conductor direction.see his description of shielding on his web site. I’m not being judgmental but it appears he’s not on the board the wire directionality choo choo train.

I have no idea what the arrows are for. You simply asked AS cables were directional and I answered.

 

[Alrainbow]

Food for thought.
If interconnects have arrows I would think Asside of makers advice it’s a guess but ,
If cables are terminated differently this can be understood more
in effect it to lower or eliminate a ground loop.
think like shielded data or signal wires that are shielded
only one side gets used
not both
also this Effects the capacitor and inductance
For a total imp load

 

[Kingrex]

I was mulling how someone says their fuse is directional, and people should try flipping their fuse direction for better performance, and the world comes unhinged. People get furious and Tom has to chop out harsh comments. But tell everyone you spent $18,000 on a new interconnect or power cord and its praise all around. Your so wise and lucky to have such a high performing product. It has to be better.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

@seagoat


Sorry for my late reaction i spend the whole day changing the cables like you said.


Seagoat the more you write the more you make the case for pseudo science.

pseudoscience huh? Well I have very good hearing and primarily listen to acoustic music, perform only acoustic type music and record only acoustic type music. So, I'm prejudiced. I also really enjoy Yello and some modern classical music which employ electronic music instruments and sounds.

Some items I want to measure exactly, such as frequency response of a cartridge and it's characteristics (VTF, VTA, internal impedance, output at a specific frequency, etc. etc.) as well as tone arm characteristics. Less precise in speaker, turntables, pre-amps, amps, tape playback, etc. Yes, I want them to be engineered to produce as accurate a facsimile of the recording as possible but I have to ultimately enjoy the sound if high quality and always the performance. I have 7,000 78s, 3,500 CDs of 78 recordings and 4,000 LPs of 78 recordings.

Sometime in the 1990s or earlier, there became a manufacturing trend to make the highest resolution sounding audio equipment. I don't like most speakers from the 1990s to about 5 or 6 years ago. The trend apparently has reversed and my type of sound is coming back in vogue. However, I have also heard too many recent designs which overcompensate and are less resolving and less interesting.

I certainly don't dictate to anyone; however, my cadre of best friends range from incredible audio sound fanatics with superlative hearing (three of them) to those who desire a second and third opinion as they are constantly unsure of their audio system choices (four of them).

 

[SeagoatLeo]

The reason has to do with electrical leakage WRT the power transformer. Ideally the transformer should be hooked up in the equipment in such a way that electrical leakage (between neutral and the safety ground) is minimized. Meters are made for exactly this purpose- they have to be able to measure down to microamps.

As I mentioned in my first post here, try just measuring the Voltage drop across the fuse holder and rotating the fuse in the holder for minimum Voltage drop. Almost any DVM can measure that Voltage drop. Don't do this if you don't think you can do it without zapping yourself. You'll find though that this technique works as well or better. Its all about the contact quality you get between the fuse and the holder.

Okay, again, with my huge tube mono block tube amps, I could kill myself touching the wrong live component (the manufacturer said the same - high voltage). I'll just stick to my own method but thanks for the information. You are confirming that there exists a difference in sound of fuses based on direction.

 

[Geoffkait]

Food for thought.
If interconnects have arrows I would think Asside of makers advice it’s a guess but ,
If cables are terminated differently this can be understood more
in effect it to lower or eliminate a ground loop.
think like shielded data or signal wires that are shielded
only one side gets used
not both
also this Effects the capacitor and inductance
For a total imp load

Yes, you’re right. Some cables have arrows to account for shield direction, since shield is usually attached at one end of the cable only. Other cables that are NOT shielded have arrows to account for “wire directionality,” AudioQuest, Goertz, Anti Cables, perhaps others. AudioQuest controls BOTH “directionalities“ - the shield AND the wire. A manufacturer would have to devise a plan for controlling directionality, such as determining the directionality for the entire large spool of wire a priori.

Whenever I use the term “directionality” I’m referring to wire directionality only, wire in cable or wire in fuse, but all wire is directional by its very nature, so thinking ahead, wouldn‘t things be much better in audio-land if ALL wire and cables were controlled and marked for directionality? Not only speaker cables, interconnects, digital cables, Ethernet cables, HDMI cables, but Internal speaker wire, internal electronics wiring, transformers, capacitors. As a famous man once said, thimk ahead.

 

[Kingrex]

Yes, you’re right. Some cables have arrows to account for shield direction, since shield is usually attached at one end of the cable only. Other cables that are NOT shielded have arrows to account for “wire directionality,” AudioQuest, Goertz, Anti Cables, perhaps others. AudioQuest controls BOTH “directionalities“ - the shield AND the wire. A manufacturer would have to devise a plan for controlling directionality, such as determining the directionality for the entire large spool of wire a priori.

Whenever I use the term “directionality” I’m referring to wire directionality only, wire in cable or wire in fuse, but all wire is directional by its very nature, so thinking ahead, wouldn‘t things be much better in audio-land if ALL wire and cables were controlled and marked for directionality? Not only speaker cables, interconnects, digital cables, Ethernet cables, HDMI cables, but Internal speaker wire, internal electronics wiring, transformers, capacitors. As a famous man once said, thimk ahead.

Even 10 awg non metalic wire that goes behind your wall is directional. A customer of mine has recorded the sonic difference. I tried orienting it once. I found the ground reversed to the hot and neutral. Makes sense to me. Adding the jacked would flip the orientation of the wire to the bare copper ground.

 

[Geoffkait]

I was mulling how someone says their fuse is directional, and people should try flipping their fuse direction for better performance, and the world comes unhinged. People get furious and Tom has to chop out harsh comments. But tell everyone you spent $18,000 on a new interconnect or power cord and its praise all around. Your so wise and lucky to have such a high performing product. It has to be better.

Other extreme examples of this way of thinking are $300,000 amps, internal NASA approved internal speaker wiring kit from Von Schweikert for $50,000, (gorgeous) turntable for $450,000, the top of the line Wilson speakers for $850,000, $50,000 tonearm, presumably if you owned the $450,000 turntable that would be a prime candidate. Plus you don’t even have a cartridge yet.

“A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into audio heaven as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle” - audiophile axiom

 

[Alrainbow]

Even 10 awg non metalic wire that goes behind your wall is directional. A customer of mine has recorded the sonic difference. I tried orienting it once. I found the ground reversed to the hot and neutral. Makes sense to me. Adding the jacked would flip the orientation of the wire to the bare copper ground.

The polarity reversal of a device makes perfect sense here.
even if 230 volt no neutral.
my understanding and what can be measured if this matters is this.
there is no Standard on transformer windings
meaning direction of windings
so if your pre amp is one way and your phono pre is another
The end result is an additive of ripple
This adds and subtracts for each device in the chain
even if it’s galvanicaly isolated
I read somewhere that some product allowed you to reverse polarities with sws
you simply plugged All in and moved sws till it sounded best

As for an absolute direction of conductors I’ll bow out on this. I can’t say it’s not true but can’t understand the concept
AC voltage as I thought is a pressure in a way
A potential
when a circuit is completed the Preasure
Forces electrons to move If dc
this condition makes sense
If AC nothing has a direction it pulses
the understanding I got is this.
a given conductor can be less inclined to allow in one direction more
Like its polarized so better one way
but it’s AC so im lost
Dc power supplies yes.
as for what we do or can hear I’m cool we all need to feel we can improve things

 

[Geoffkait]

OK, let’s look at a fuse in an audio AC circuit, for example a fuse located on one leg of the two AC wires coming into an amplifier. Visualize the signal wiggling back and forth in the fuse wire. When the signal is moving in the direction of the speakers it causes the speaker diaphragm to move out, assign the fuse is located on the + wire and cabling has consistent connectivity. But when the signal is moving in the opposite direction, I.e., away from the speakers toward the wall there is *no effect on the speakers* or the sound. We only care about the signal when it’s moving toward the speakers, you can ignore the signal moving toward the wall.

The E and B fields are produced by the electromagnetic wave in the wire. And E and B fields lie completely outside the wire or cable conductor and are what interacts with the magnet and voice coil of the speaker diaphragm, to move it in and out, + and - wires of the AC circuit.

Thus, for best results both + and - wires of power cord should be controlled for directionality, on the non-fuse leg the signal going toward the speaker also affects the sound, and the signal on the non-fuse wire can be ignored when it’s traveling toward the wall.

 

[DonH50]

OK, let’s look at a fuse in an audio AC circuit, for example a fuse located on one leg of the two AC wires coming into an amplifier. Visualize the signal wiggling back and forth in the fuse wire. When the signal is moving in the direction of the speakers it causes the speaker diaphragm to move out, assign the fuse is located on the + wire and cabling is all in sane correct connectivity. But in that fuse wire - when the signal is moving in the opposite direction, I.e., away from the speakers toward the wall - there is *no effect on the speakers* or the sound. We only care about the signal when it’s moving toward the speakers, you can ignore the signal moving toward the wall.

The “signal“ is the free electrons or current, which induces a *magnetic field.” It’s the *induced magnetic and electric fields* B and E that interact with the speaker MAGNET and voice coil. a moving E field produces a magnetic field.

Thus, for best results both + and - wires of power cord should be controlled for directionality, on the non fuse leg the signal going toward the speaker also affects the sound, and the signal on the non fuse wire can be ignored when it’s traveling toward the wall.

The AC wires for wall power coming into an amplifier are decoupled from the speakers by the power supply. There is virtually no relation between the wall power and the signal for any competently designed amplifier operated within its design specs.

Current exists in a loop, see Maxwell's Equations, so goes "forward" on one (force, send) wire and "back" on the other (return) wire. Break the loop, and no current will flow (ignoring RF antennas which are not the subject here). If you are talking about current you cannot ignore the "signal moving toward the wall" as it is a series circuit, a loop, so the current that goes in one terminal (speaker or whatever) comes out the other. "Positive" current moves the speaker diaphragm in one direction; when current switches polarity, the speaker moves in the other direction, as the electrical current enhances or opposes the magnetic field from the magnet in the speaker (assuming a conventional driver and not an ESL). You can apply a very low-frequency tone and watch the speaker's cone moving in and out; it does not move out, then stop, but returns to center (rest) and moves in the opposite direction. In the absence of current the magnetic field collapses and the speaker returns to rest, but as the voltage and current cycle the other direction, the cone moves again in the opposite direction.

You are arguing that if you put the fuse in the return ("ground") wire it will have no effect. That is not physically possible; the effect (if any) on the sound will be the same no matter which wire the fuse is in.

 

[Robh3606]

Exhibit A, measurements of audio fuse directionality by HiFi tuning.

https://mcru.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Hi-Fi-Tuning-Fuses.pdf

Exhibit B, the paper on wire directionality by AudioQuest.

News Article

AudioQuest cables and other audio products combine solid conductors, high-purity metals, specialized geometries, and stable dielectrics to enable naturally beautiful sounds and images.

www.audioquest.com

Did you read exhibit A?

Looking at the data, fuses are not marked for direction because there is no reason too. The changes are in m ohms going out 3 decimal places.

The differences are insignificant and potentially a measurement artifact.

Rob

 

[Geoffkait]

Did you read exhibit A?

Looking at the data, fuses are not marked for direction because there is no reason too. The changes are in m ohms going out 3 decimal places.

The differences are insignificant and potentially a measurement artifact.

Rob

And yet the measurements are consistent for all fuses they measured. I.e., not random, not insignificant. If you had read further you would have know the third part tester is a well know company that would be able to measure small difference. I also explained earlier that the effects in listening tests are not small, that very small differences in voltage drop are a red flag, but it doesn’t mean the difference in listening to one direction vs the other is because of the voltage drop per se, which is exactly what’s in the data sheets written part. And what people hear who have purchased high end fuses. You know, 120,000 of them and counting.

 

[Geoffkait]

The AC wires for wall power coming into an amplifier are decoupled from the speakers by the power supply. There is virtually no relation between the wall power and the signal for any competently designed amplifier operated within its design specs.

Current exists in a loop, see Maxwell's Equations, so goes "forward" on one (force, send) wire and "back" on the other (return) wire. Break the loop, and no current will flow (ignoring RF antennas which are not the subject here). If you are talking about current you cannot ignore the "signal moving toward the wall" as it is a series circuit, a loop, so the current that goes in one terminal (speaker or whatever) comes out the other. "Positive" current moves the speaker diaphragm in one direction; when current switches polarity, the speaker moves in the other direction, as the electrical current enhances or opposes the magnetic field from the magnet in the speaker (assuming a conventional driver and not an ESL). You can apply a very low-frequency tone and watch the speaker's cone moving in and out; it does not move out, then stop, but returns to center (rest) and moves in the opposite direction. In the absence of current the magnetic field collapses and the speaker returns to rest, but as the voltage and current cycle the other direction, the cone moves again in the opposite direction.

You are arguing that if you put the fuse in the return ("ground") wire it will have no effect. That is not physically possible; the effect (if any) on the sound will be the same no matter which wire the fuse is in.

Sorry, you’re not following. When I say in the “direction of the speaker“ I mean any wire in the system, the fuse couid be located at the speaker or in a preamp, or DAC. it’s still the same logic.

 

[DonH50]

Sorry, you’re not following. When I say in the “direction of the speaker“ I mean any wire in the system, the fuse couid be located at the speaker or in a preamp, or DAC. it’s still the same logic.

Since you were conflating "wall" and "speaker" wires for directions I was confused. So you are saying that, for any two wires (planes, conductors, whatever) completing a circuit anywhere in the system, the fuse only matters if it is in the "positive" wire, where the (AC) signal flows "toward" the load? I am not saying I agree with that premise, but trying to understand your position.

 

[Geoffkait]

The AC wires for wall power coming into an amplifier are decoupled from the speakers by the power supply. There is virtually no relation between the wall power and the signal for any competently designed amplifier operated within its design specs.

Current exists in a loop, see Maxwell's Equations, so goes "forward" on one (force, send) wire and "back" on the other (return) wire. Break the loop, and no current will flow (ignoring RF antennas which are not the subject here). If you are talking about current you cannot ignore the "signal moving toward the wall" as it is a series circuit, a loop, so the current that goes in one terminal (speaker or whatever) comes out the other. "Positive" current moves the speaker diaphragm in one direction; when current switches polarity, the speaker moves in the other direction, as the electrical current enhances or opposes the magnetic field from the magnet in the speaker (assuming a conventional driver and not an ESL). You can apply a very low-frequency tone and watch the speaker's cone moving in and out; it does not move out, then stop, but returns to center (rest) and moves in the opposite direction. In the absence of current the magnetic field collapses and the speaker returns to rest, but as the voltage and current cycle the other direction, the cone moves again in the opposite direction.

You are arguing that if you put the fuse in the return ("ground") wire it will have no effect. That is not physically possible; the effect (if any) on the sound will be the same no matter which wire the fuse is in.

Huh? I’m not saying that at all. Don‘t put words in my mouth. Maybe a better example is a fuse located at the speaker. Then it may be more obvious that rate of AC alternation in the fuse is the instantaneous audio frequency at that moment. That’s what makes the speaker diaphragms move exactly with the sine wave of audio signal. The IN + OUT is one full cycle. Each wire contributes 1/2 wave, no?

What I’m saying is for both + and - wires we only care about the signal coming in on the fuse wire, not when it moves in the opposite direction in that fuse wire. Same logic for the other non fuse wire. That’s why BOTH wires in any audio circuit, not only wires associated with fuses And not only AC power cords, need to be controlled for directionality, ideally.

obviously the rate of alternation of the AC signal at the amp power cord is 60Hz, not the audio frequency 20-20k Hz.

 

[DonH50]

Huh? I’m not saying that at all. Don‘t put words in my mouth.

Going by this:

OK, let’s look at a fuse in an audio AC circuit, for example a fuse located on one leg of the two AC wires coming into an amplifier. Visualize the signal wiggling back and forth in the fuse wire. When the signal is moving in the direction of the speakers it causes the speaker diaphragm to move out, assign the fuse is located on the + wire and cabling has consistent connectivity. But when the signal is moving in the opposite direction, I.e., away from the speakers toward the wall there is *no effect on the speakers* or the sound. We only care about the signal when it’s moving toward the speakers, you can ignore the signal moving toward the wall.

Thus, for best results both + and - wires of power cord should be controlled for directionality, on the non-fuse leg the signal going toward the speaker also affects the sound, and the signal on the non-fuse wire can be ignored when it’s traveling toward the wall.

You said "the signal moving toward the wall" (way from the speaker) can be ignored, yet current flows in a loop, so in any two-terminal device such as a speaker the current that goes in must come out. If you break the loop, no current flows, so I do not see how you can say the return current can be ignored.

In any event, I cannot tell if this is pure trolling or fundamental lack of physics, so will leave you to it. I need to go shovel snow.

 

[Geoffkait]

Your post has been deleted.

The WBF Team has offered you an involuntary vacation, after multiple warnings. I would like to remind you that being a member of this forum is a privilege and not a right.

After 3 days, you will be allowed to return to the forum, hopefully without such a confrontational attitude. Next time, I would advise to head the warnings given to you by the administrative team.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I was mulling how someone says their fuse is directional, and people should try flipping their fuse direction for better performance, and the world comes unhinged. People get furious and Tom has to chop out harsh comments. But tell everyone you spent $18,000 on a new interconnect or power cord and its praise all around. Your so wise and lucky to have such a high performing product. It has to be better.

AMEN Brother.