Gamut M250i mono blocks vs ???
- Thread starter JayDee
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Wonderful to hear the praises for Michael design, his D200 stereo power amp would likely be my endgame amp.
Had a very satisfied email correspondence with him about his design, he was unbelievable friendly and kind, even knowing that it would take a while before I had the funds to purchase from him, he was very helpful and courteous, never pressing me to buy, just a classy guy.
The hifi world is moving the way of class D more fast now I feel, so getting a ab amp that would last you the last years on this planet will maybe soon not be so easy The Belles SA 30 class A has me wondering sometimes if my hifi foot print is on the bigger size these days, but listening to some tunes soon dissipate that
Had a very satisfied email correspondence with him about his design, he was unbelievable friendly and kind, even knowing that it would take a while before I had the funds to purchase from him, he was very helpful and courteous, never pressing me to buy, just a classy guy.
The hifi world is moving the way of class D more fast now I feel, so getting a ab amp that would last you the last years on this planet will maybe soon not be so easy The Belles SA 30 class A has me wondering sometimes if my hifi foot print is on the bigger size these days, but listening to some tunes soon dissipate that
Gents wanted to give a heads up I am posting a pair of Musiklab M300 monos on the mart probably tomorrow if I get around to it. They started life as very low hour Gamut m250 mk3 and spent about a month with Michael last summer in Denmark for the conversion. I listen mostly to my D220, grabbed these just to have them but its a waste having them sit...
As mentioned above, they are unique in the world of SS
P
As mentioned above, they are unique in the world of SS
P
Kia ora whanau
I've purchased the M300's from Knopf. This was a seamless transaction, with Knopf taking the care and time to pack and ship the units with the respect they deserve. I have bought a lot of stuff online and this has been the best experience I've had.
The M300's were installed in my system earlier this week and have around 30 hours of listening on them since then, some casual and some serious.
I'm in a quandary about what to write. There is no doubt they have elevated my music enjoyment to a new level. My system now provides effortless emotion. It is possible, with the right recording, to really understand the intent and interpretation of the artist(s) as they convey their personal message(s).
My quandary is, is this a function of how the amplifier sounds, or is it simply getting out of the way and allowing the upstream components (Antipodes K50 and Aries Cerat Kassandra MK2) to connect to the speakers (Genesis G2.2Jrs) and room to deliver the recording as it was made?
I am questioning whether these amplifiers are delivering commission or omission in the way they connect me to the music. Are they 'straight wire with gain', or are they rose-tinted spectacles? Having had the covers off to change the voltage from 115V to 230V and seen the relative simplicity of the component layout, I suspect the former.
I could try and use all the audiophile terms to describe subjective improvement over the VTL S400, but I've read rave reports of systems being the dogs bollocks, yet swapping out footers, or putting a brass dish somewhere in the room makes the previous incarnation appear to be chopped liver.
Perhaps the real answer is to spend less time debating diminishing returns on equipment investment via nebulous prose on the interweb, and spend more time emotionally involved in the myriad of stories that are being told by talented artists old and new.
In short, these amplifiers are, in my opinion, a masterpiece, and I congratulate Michael Erdinger on his seminal design and execution.
In conclusion, after 40 years on this journey, is the only significant future change I will make to my system is (potentially) downsizing speakers when we retire and move to a smaller place / listening room. That truly is music to my wife's ears .
My counsel is if someone is looking to upgrade their amplification for what is, in audiophile relativity terms, not a lot of money, MusikLab represents outstanding value.
Thank you Knopf and Michael.
I've purchased the M300's from Knopf. This was a seamless transaction, with Knopf taking the care and time to pack and ship the units with the respect they deserve. I have bought a lot of stuff online and this has been the best experience I've had.
The M300's were installed in my system earlier this week and have around 30 hours of listening on them since then, some casual and some serious.
I'm in a quandary about what to write. There is no doubt they have elevated my music enjoyment to a new level. My system now provides effortless emotion. It is possible, with the right recording, to really understand the intent and interpretation of the artist(s) as they convey their personal message(s).
My quandary is, is this a function of how the amplifier sounds, or is it simply getting out of the way and allowing the upstream components (Antipodes K50 and Aries Cerat Kassandra MK2) to connect to the speakers (Genesis G2.2Jrs) and room to deliver the recording as it was made?
I am questioning whether these amplifiers are delivering commission or omission in the way they connect me to the music. Are they 'straight wire with gain', or are they rose-tinted spectacles? Having had the covers off to change the voltage from 115V to 230V and seen the relative simplicity of the component layout, I suspect the former.
I could try and use all the audiophile terms to describe subjective improvement over the VTL S400, but I've read rave reports of systems being the dogs bollocks, yet swapping out footers, or putting a brass dish somewhere in the room makes the previous incarnation appear to be chopped liver.
Perhaps the real answer is to spend less time debating diminishing returns on equipment investment via nebulous prose on the interweb, and spend more time emotionally involved in the myriad of stories that are being told by talented artists old and new.
In short, these amplifiers are, in my opinion, a masterpiece, and I congratulate Michael Erdinger on his seminal design and execution.
In conclusion, after 40 years on this journey, is the only significant future change I will make to my system is (potentially) downsizing speakers when we retire and move to a smaller place / listening room. That truly is music to my wife's ears .
My counsel is if someone is looking to upgrade their amplification for what is, in audiophile relativity terms, not a lot of money, MusikLab represents outstanding value.
Thank you Knopf and Michael.
Very glad you are pleased with them. 
My experience is that simpler is often better and that lower power amps of similar design sound better than higher powered amps often through forced simplicity. The exception would be Michael's design, the only SS amp I know of that is limited exclusively by the size of its power supply. Otherwise circuit unchanged, ala S300... I will never hear the S300 monos but I don't need to, it's an unlimited M300.
Michael's design thus is unique. Simple under the hood, but with power. What you are hearing that you like if I had to guess is one of the consistent trademarks of single and dual output device SS designs, they are more coherent and phase correct in their presentation. We are far more sensitive to that than say tonality. I am sure your source produces that in spades already.
Your entire chain is simple yet powerful. A world class tubed AD1865 DAC into 3 gain stage SS monos with only two output devices per side and plenty of reserve for your speakers. Hard to make it any more simple
I doubt it gets much better too, you can spend a lot more money and muck it up far more easily.....
My experience is that simpler is often better and that lower power amps of similar design sound better than higher powered amps often through forced simplicity. The exception would be Michael's design, the only SS amp I know of that is limited exclusively by the size of its power supply. Otherwise circuit unchanged, ala S300... I will never hear the S300 monos but I don't need to, it's an unlimited M300.
Michael's design thus is unique. Simple under the hood, but with power. What you are hearing that you like if I had to guess is one of the consistent trademarks of single and dual output device SS designs, they are more coherent and phase correct in their presentation. We are far more sensitive to that than say tonality. I am sure your source produces that in spades already.
Your entire chain is simple yet powerful. A world class tubed AD1865 DAC into 3 gain stage SS monos with only two output devices per side and plenty of reserve for your speakers. Hard to make it any more simple
I doubt it gets much better too, you can spend a lot more money and muck it up far more easily.....
Thanks Knopf. Living in New Zealand limits what gear you listen to prior to purchase which means I've done a lot of research before settling on the technology I have. For example, whilst we have an Aries Cerat dealer, he doesn't actually stock anything.Very glad you are pleased with them.
My experience is that simpler is often better and that lower power amps of similar design sound better than higher powered amps often through forced simplicity. The exception would be Michael's design, the only SS amp I know of that is limited exclusively by the size of its power supply. Otherwise circuit unchanged, ala S300... I will never hear the S300 monos but I don't need to, it's an unlimited M300.
Michael's design thus is unique. Simple under the hood, but with power. What you are hearing that you like if I had to guess is one of the consistent trademarks of single and dual output device SS designs, they are more coherent and phase correct in their presentation. We are far more sensitive to that than say tonality. I am sure your source produces that in spades already.
Your entire chain is simple yet powerful. A world class tubed AD1865 DAC into 3 gain stage SS monos with only two output devices per side and plenty of reserve for your speakers. Hard to make it any more simple
I doubt it gets much better too, you can spend a lot more money and muck it up far more easily.....
My focus has been on equipment grounded in smart, straightforward enginering where the philosophy of the designer matches up with mine.
Everything I have was purchased unheard, and prior to the M300's the consensus from friends and fellow audio tragics is the sound was pretty special. I've also had accomplished musicians and amateur composers suggest a level of integrity to the sound they had not previously experienced from home audio.
The M300's have moved the dial again, letting the organic, effortless emotion of the two upstream components shine through, resulting in my wife finally realising why I've been on the journey. She doesn't normally comment on changes to the system, preferring to roll her eyes at the expenditure, but has been vocal in her increased emotional involvement as a result of the M300's.
In the words used to describe Jaguar cars in the 60's, Grace, Pace and Space.
Cheers
My words , too - there is some anecdotal evidence that the female perception of sound is way more acute that their bearded cave companions - makes some sense too. So do ask their opinion of your system - it might be valuable insights.
Other wise I am flattered pink , and speech less, and pleased no end, with that report from down under.
What else can I say ? except that ERdinger is the name of a nice german beer, and mine is : Edinger . Not the first time though.
I do pursue the idea that hardware should not get in the way of the music, as in my tiny violin system niche too, and the Linsley Hood (?) idea of a ´straight wire with gain´ is the idea to go for.
'What else is new ? I now believe I have uncovered some unsettling performance flaws of the GamuT voodoo "wormhole" making me even more determined to tear this and other ... stuff... out of all their "i" models.
And I now believe I have identified a likely cause of the GamuT thump issue endlessly brought up here, by a contributor fearing for the life of his dainty horn speaker, who has heard an aged Gamut Amp shut-down-thump.
So be Calm, now ! there´s no need to dump a GamuT D200 , - it can be fixed, if it alarms your sensibilities. Some electronic insight and soldering intervention is required, not for DIY.
Other wise I am flattered pink , and speech less, and pleased no end, with that report from down under.
What else can I say ? except that ERdinger is the name of a nice german beer, and mine is : Edinger . Not the first time though.
I do pursue the idea that hardware should not get in the way of the music, as in my tiny violin system niche too, and the Linsley Hood (?) idea of a ´straight wire with gain´ is the idea to go for.
'What else is new ? I now believe I have uncovered some unsettling performance flaws of the GamuT voodoo "wormhole" making me even more determined to tear this and other ... stuff... out of all their "i" models.
And I now believe I have identified a likely cause of the GamuT thump issue endlessly brought up here, by a contributor fearing for the life of his dainty horn speaker, who has heard an aged Gamut Amp shut-down-thump.
So be Calm, now ! there´s no need to dump a GamuT D200 , - it can be fixed, if it alarms your sensibilities. Some electronic insight and soldering intervention is required, not for DIY.
Hi MusikLab, I'm am both a music and beer fan, having drink fresh Erdinger in Germany in the past, so got my proverbial wires crossed! Apologies .
Really, I should be grateful to Hear Here , for his accounts of the old 2nd hand D200 with a thump issue, and have recently done tests and mods for this issue, small in amplitude but important to some . I doubt that there are many D200 owners using delicate 105dB speakers made for 8W valve amps, but the dynamics of the combination must be impressive. I´d be rather concerned about the music peaks from the amp, toasting the voice coil.
Currently I have a set of M250´s in for upgrade, and tested my latest mods, also including the on-off thump.
I am pleased to report that it is now so quiet I need to have an ear close to my speaker to hear when it is turning on , with a faint sense of the Universe background , and no thump at all, when switching off.
I am grateful for you all´s kind praise of the amps sonic ´s.
My best to all and enjoy the Xmas etc holidays and the new year by taking time to listen to your great systems.
Michael Edinger, MusikLab.dk
Currently I have a set of M250´s in for upgrade, and tested my latest mods, also including the on-off thump.
I am pleased to report that it is now so quiet I need to have an ear close to my speaker to hear when it is turning on , with a faint sense of the Universe background , and no thump at all, when switching off.
I am grateful for you all´s kind praise of the amps sonic ´s.
My best to all and enjoy the Xmas etc holidays and the new year by taking time to listen to your great systems.
Michael Edinger, MusikLab.dk
That's great to hear. I loved the sound from my GamuT and had no concerns about overloading the speakers by playing music loudly. It was the start up and shut down thump that concerned me. The Avantgardes are happy to play loudly whether fed by a 6 watt PX-25 SET or a beefy 300 watt ss amp. It's good to hear you've found a cure to its bad habits! It amazed me that these amps had no "soft start" circuit to protect speakers from these surges, even warning owners about it in the User Guide. In the end of my 12 amp home testing session, I chose the Class D M33 amp from NAD, but only because of the GamuT's thump. Happy listening.
Peter
Peter
This is an aging thread, but absolutely the right thread to ask. My question is in regards to the start up time delay on the main board. Is it possible to alter the delay, say advance it and if so, what governs it, is it an IC, cap or resistor ?
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Hi, Oneminde , thanks, good question . Answer : all of the above.
The design of the MusikLab and Gamut /SiriuS has origins from before the easy access to dedicated programmable processor IC semiconductors. So the support (ie. non-audio) circuits are built with more basic semiconductors, and these are utilised to the max for versatility, as in the comprehensive protection circuits, working entirely outside the audio circuits, monitoring in real time the amplifier and the speakers as well, and reacting within milliseconds in most events of accidental mishandling, malfunctioning or damaging treatment. Severe Overheating , shortcircuiting, extreme high frequency overload, DC imbalance, highly reactive output loads are all responded to by muting or disconnecting the input, or in extreme cases, releasing the output relay to disconnect and protect the output load. The protection or load is automatically restored to normal functioning a few seconds after removing the issue causing it. The amplifiers are reputed for being virtually bullet-proof. Even to ´exotic´ cable constructs.
One more advantage is that the special processor IC´s that are rapidly obsoleted, discontinued and unavailable for replacement, are not a problem.
But the rather clever double or triple use of the basic support circuits, also has just one drawback- if one function is desired to work differently, others will need changes as well, to keep the full protection chain intact. This is included in my new units, and modified as a part of my upgrade process quest for restoring aging amps to former glory and much extended life, by changing the causes of issues that do arise after years of use, to improved operating conditions- and keep the audio intact, or improved , too. Well, that´s what you get for asking a simple question ... a simpler answer would be : "Don´t mess with it" ! cheers to you all !
Well, despite Musiklab's detailed and convoluted reply, I had to re-sell my Gamut D200 Mk III after a few months. The amp was outstanding sound-wise but its behaviour on start up and shut down with my very high sensitivity speakers rendered it unsuitable.
Are your concerns related to this extract from the User Guide?
Normal use
When you switch on, the blue light in the front will light up to confirm you have mains power
One second later two small clicks can be heard from inside the amplifier, they confirm, that the amplifier has connected the loudspeakers using the output relay.
One second later still, there will be two clicks in the loudspeakers.
These clicks are your confirmation that the protection system have found everything to be O
The input signal can now pass through to the loudspeakers.
It was these "clicks" that manifested themselves as dangerously loud thumps through my speakers that concerned me enough to say goodbye to this otherwise lovely amp. If this is your experience and concern, I wonder if some more effective protection circuit could be applied.
@musiklab:
That makes sense, that it is several components, and I didn't ask from a perspective of anything being wrong, it was more in regards to advancing or giving the overall circuit more time to "settle in", but I am sure this is above my paygrade so too speak and that when you worked on the initial circuit and its revisions, you measured and monitored events as they occurred and got to a point of "yep, that is good enough and it does what I want too"
@Hear Here
Well, I don't have super high sensitive circuits and a tiny thump, which many equipment's have, doesn't mean its dangerous or damaging. There are speaker protection circuits that essentially pass 0VDC, so I would buy back the amp you sold and install a SPC in line with your speaker ..
That makes sense, that it is several components, and I didn't ask from a perspective of anything being wrong, it was more in regards to advancing or giving the overall circuit more time to "settle in", but I am sure this is above my paygrade so too speak and that when you worked on the initial circuit and its revisions, you measured and monitored events as they occurred and got to a point of "yep, that is good enough and it does what I want too"
@Hear Here
Well, I don't have super high sensitive circuits and a tiny thump, which many equipment's have, doesn't mean its dangerous or damaging. There are speaker protection circuits that essentially pass 0VDC, so I would buy back the amp you sold and install a SPC in line with your speaker ..
@Oneminde : thanks again,
If you have one of these amps, it should work without issues, and if there is one, I reckon I can fix it, once my arms are long enough. I receive working and non- working amplifiers for upgrades, some after 20+ years of satisfactory service.
Any aging amplifier can develop issues more or less annoying, or even destructive.
But talk alone is no cure. Looking back through 2 decades of hindsight, some improvements appear desirable. A turn-on delay extension is just one such, and already implemented in new and recently upgraded units.
If you have one of these amps, it should work without issues, and if there is one, I reckon I can fix it, once my arms are long enough. I receive working amplifiers for upgrades, some after 20+ years of satisfactory service.
A small correction, if I may : The amps from MusikLab ,GamuT do *not* pass DC or sub- audio below 10 Hz, beyond the few millivolts (typ 0-2mV ) allowed by the circuits in normal operation, anything much more than that is detected and reacted upon within milliseconds, by the output relay opening. In itself, the amp protection circuit and speaker relay is also a pretty good SPC, and - it is NOT in line with the audio circuits anyhow ( - except for the final relay, natch.) It is still Your sole responsibility to keep the speakers fed within its max power limits.
If you have one of these amps, it should work without issues, and if there is one, I reckon I can fix it, once my arms are long enough. I receive working and non- working amplifiers for upgrades, some after 20+ years of satisfactory service.
Any aging amplifier can develop issues more or less annoying, or even destructive.
But talk alone is no cure. Looking back through 2 decades of hindsight, some improvements appear desirable. A turn-on delay extension is just one such, and already implemented in new and recently upgraded units.
If you have one of these amps, it should work without issues, and if there is one, I reckon I can fix it, once my arms are long enough. I receive working amplifiers for upgrades, some after 20+ years of satisfactory service.
A small correction, if I may : The amps from MusikLab ,GamuT do *not* pass DC or sub- audio below 10 Hz, beyond the few millivolts (typ 0-2mV ) allowed by the circuits in normal operation, anything much more than that is detected and reacted upon within milliseconds, by the output relay opening. In itself, the amp protection circuit and speaker relay is also a pretty good SPC, and - it is NOT in line with the audio circuits anyhow ( - except for the final relay, natch.) It is still Your sole responsibility to keep the speakers fed within its max power limits.
@musiklab
I have something lined up
I am not questioning the operation of the protection circuit and replacing architecture just because doesn't make sense if all you do is change parts. So newer isn't always better, different perhaps, but not necessarily better and there are multiple reasons as to why a circuit would start producing DC or dangerously high surge currents. It often stem from old parts or damaged parts. So for now, the architecture is fine.. but lets poke at it a bit non the less... he he
The thump, I'm gonna assume its a HV transient which occur between the relay contacts as in you have enough voltage to ionize the air (spark-gap) and this causes a tiny surge which is an effect on the voice coil and thus you can hear it. We are after all dealing with a mechanical switch and so these things can exist.
Static electricity discharge between objects such as a nylon jacked and something metal or another person does have an audible "click" or "pop"
My question would be; How can we deal with this spark-gap, would a capacitor in series dampen the effect ? or would a different relay help ? ... I'm curious.
I have something lined up
I am not questioning the operation of the protection circuit and replacing architecture just because doesn't make sense if all you do is change parts. So newer isn't always better, different perhaps, but not necessarily better and there are multiple reasons as to why a circuit would start producing DC or dangerously high surge currents. It often stem from old parts or damaged parts. So for now, the architecture is fine.. but lets poke at it a bit non the less... he he
The thump, I'm gonna assume its a HV transient which occur between the relay contacts as in you have enough voltage to ionize the air (spark-gap) and this causes a tiny surge which is an effect on the voice coil and thus you can hear it. We are after all dealing with a mechanical switch and so these things can exist.
Static electricity discharge between objects such as a nylon jacked and something metal or another person does have an audible "click" or "pop"
My question would be; How can we deal with this spark-gap, would a capacitor in series dampen the effect ? or would a different relay help ? ... I'm curious.
@Oneminde,
Sorry , but you are dreaming up a non existent HV tree. I suggest to read some basic grade school physics and calculate how much voltage is needed to ionise a 3mm air gap. The voltages I measure are tiny, as in milli-volts. The capacitor suggestion is a no-fly. Find out why.
Sorry , but you are dreaming up a non existent HV tree. I suggest to read some basic grade school physics and calculate how much voltage is needed to ionise a 3mm air gap. The voltages I measure are tiny, as in milli-volts. The capacitor suggestion is a no-fly. Find out why.
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