Harshness – What causes it? What relieves it?

[arnyk]

This is absolutely true IMO, and IME without exception. I have offered to send demo cables for people that think they make no difference to try out a lot of times, including once on this forum, and without fail nobody ever takes me up on my offer. Never, not once.

Please send me your cables. Here is my address: Arnold B. Krueger, 1600 Prestwick Road, Grosse Pointe Woods MI 48236. I am a well known objectivist and I will listen to them and post my reactions.

 

[LL21]

Hey...i always said i am a non-techie...but does this mean anything to anyone here and particularly, does it start to address the question of a SS amp and vibration effects?

"...The ceramic EIA Class 2 dielectrics used in high-K capacitors ("Z5U" and "X7R") are piezoelectric and directly transform mechanical vibration into a voltage in exactly the same way as a ceramic or piezoelectric microphone.[2] Film capacitors using soft (mechanically compliant) dielectric materials can also be microphonic due to vibrational energy physically moving the plates of the capacitor. Likewise, variable capacitors using air as a dielectric are vulnerable to vibrations moving the plates. Capacitors using glass as the dielectric, while quite expensive, can be made to be essentially nonmicrophonic...."

 

[arnyk]

Keith,

Why are measurements the only way to distinguish between real and fake?

They aren't.

They are simply one means of many to evaluate objects.

In fact, if industry experts who actually design and make this equipment use measurements as only part of what they do to make their equipment,

That is correct. I've never heard of anybody design some piece of audio gear or a system and not listen to it at number of times during the project and once it was complete. This is certainly true of my own work, and I am intimately familiar with the work of people who have designed audio systems and products that have sold in the 100,000's.

that means to me there are definitely things they are hearing which they are not finding thru simply measurements. And as Atmasphere says, it is not just measurements of the equipment or the room...it is measurements in conjunction with human hearing.

Take for example someone with high frequency hearing loss...that person is going to turn the treble up (not because its ruler flat), but because they need the boost to balance out their own internal hearing issues.

Unlikely. IME people adjust their audio systems to sound like everything else sounds to them in natural life. Many people own audio systems that have no tone controls or other means of adjusting frequency response.

That CANNOT be measured by measuring the equipment, nor the room.

Except it can through the technology of Audiometry which is a legitimate Art and Technology, admittedly one that is poorly practiced by many who are in the business.

That is why listening hearing is equally if not MORE important for many of us.

What happens most commonly with old age is that the loss is primarily sensitivity, so simply playing the music somewhat louder can be a big help. IME the SPLs at live performances (at least in the good seats) are generally far greater (even at classical concerts) than those that most people listen to at home. Simply restoring live listening levels can be very helpful.

 

[arnyk]

Hey...i always said i am a non-techie...but does this mean anything to anyone here and particularly, does it start to address the question of a SS amp and vibration effects?

"...The ceramic EIA Class 2 dielectrics used in high-K capacitors ("Z5U" and "X7R") are piezoelectric and directly transform mechanical vibration into a voltage in exactly the same way as a ceramic or piezoelectric microphone.[2] Film capacitors using soft (mechanically compliant) dielectric materials can also be microphonic due to vibrational energy physically moving the plates of the capacitor. Likewise, variable capacitors using air as a dielectric are vulnerable to vibrations moving the plates. Capacitors using glass as the dielectric, while quite expensive, can be made to be essentially nonmicrophonic...."

Z5U caps are well known to not be legitimate for use in the signal path, and inspection of quality gear, even low end mid fi, generally finds them only being used as power bypass capacitors which is far, far less likely to cause audible problems.

The audible problems with these parts (when placed in the signal path) can be detected in ABX DBTs and I have done so. They are also readily measurable. They were not uncommon in the signal path of tubed audio gear from the 1960s, and I am often amused by the favorable subjective comments about the sound quality of this gear that I find on the web. Eico kits were very commonly afflicted with this problem (Z5U caps in the signal path), and so were many others of that era.

 

[LL21]

Z5U caps are well known to not be legitimate for use in the signal path, and inspection of quality gear, even low end mid fi, generally finds them only being used as power bypass capacitors which is far, far less likely to cause audible problems.

The audible problems with these parts (when placed in the signal path) can be detected in ABX DBTs and I have done so. They are also readily measurable. They were not uncommon in the signal path of tubed audio gear from the 1960s, and I am often amused by the favorable subjective comments about the sound quality of this gear that I find on the web. Eico kits were very commonly afflicted with this problem (Z5U caps in the signal path), and so were many others of that era.

Thanks good to know...

 

[LL21]

Daniel Weiss famously doesn't listen to Weiss products during development ,and why would he, he is an engineer Lloyd, he
designs the circuit and confirms by measurement.
I have the upmost respect for him and his companies equipment, the Weiss DAC202 is the best measuring piece of equipment that John Atkinson had measured in his 25 year career.
Keith.

Hi Keith...why would an audio engineer use his ears when designing equipment? Does a car manufacturer not test drive? Does a wind tunnel specialist not actually do live tests rather than just from the engineering specs? Live test brings in 'real life' vagaries and unmeasureables in many sciences. Medicine included as it is a science around human anatomy...which audio engineering is as well.

thus, i dont get the sense being an engineer of audio means you don't use your ears to evaluate equipment. David Wilson, Andy Payor, Dan D'Agostino, Flemming Rasmussen, Ken Ishiwata of Marantz, Lew Johnson...all well known veterans of the industry...all use measurements, all also listen to their equipment, sometimes have reference recordings they use when listening to their equipment (which in some cases they recorded live themselves).

 

[bonzo75]

Daniel Weiss famously doesn't listen to Weiss products during development ,and why would he, he is an engineer Lloyd, he
designs the circuit and confirms by measurement.
I have the upmost respect for him and his companies equipment, the Weiss DAC202 is the best measuring piece of equipment that John Atkinson had measured in his 25 year career.
Keith.

Atkinson is hilarious. Kind of saying "This is the best measuring girl I have seen in a while, but I have no wish to date her" - the latter half of the statement being implicit. Honey, do you still find me attractive. umm, well, you still measure well darling. You really need to go out with someone for a while before deciding Keith.

 

[arnyk]

Hi Keith...why would an audio engineer use his ears when designing equipment?

(1) Because he doesn't trust the gear. Frankly the gear used to be pretty limited and not trusting it thoroughly was a pretty good idea.

(2) Because he doesn't trust his ability to exploit the gear, given that it is now generally pretty trustworthy.

Does a car manufacturer not test drive?

The counterpoint is that many of the top auto executives don't drive. They have company-provided chauffeurs. Would you trust a test drive by someone who drives only rarely or not at all? In Detoit there is a distinction between "Car Guys", "Businessmen", and "Technicans". The average auto engineer is not a very good test driver, and can't even change oil or spark plugs.

The same is true about audio engineers.

Does a wind tunnel specialist not actually do live tests rather than just from the engineering specs?

Wind tunnel testing is no less abstract than power amp bench tests.

Live test brings in 'real life' vagaries and unmeasureables in many sciences. Medicine included as it is a science around human anatomy...which audio engineering is as well.

Well let's talk about people who do medical research since I have two kids in that biz. A lot of them are chemists and engineers, not MDs. For example a lot of cancer researchers haven't talked to a human cancer patient since before they got their PhD. If you are a medical pathologist it can help you get through the day if you see your work pieces as isolated pieces of tissue, not parts of real breathing people.

Thus, i don't get the sense being an engineer of audio means you don't use your ears to evaluate equipment.

It is common knowledge in the audio biz that subjective testing done right is time consuming and expensive. Much more so if the thing you are engineering involves subtle effects. So some degree building audio gear is like making fine furniture. There is a lot of measuring and cutting, and not much visual appreciation of the finished piece.

David Wilson, Andy Payor, Dan D'Agostino, Flemming Rasmussen, Ken Ishiwata of Marantz, Lew Johnson...all well known veterans of the industry...all use measurements, all also listen to their equipment, sometimes have reference recordings they use when listening to their equipment (which in some cases they recorded live themselves).

The sad truth is that everybody's hearing goes down hill as they age. Do you send the old horse out to pasture just because he measures before he cuts?

 

[bonzo75]

It is common knowledge in the audio biz that subjective testing done right is time consuming and expensive. Much more so if the thing you are engineering involves subtle effects. So some degree building audio gear is like making fine furniture. There is a lot of measuring and cutting, and not much visual appreciation of the finished piece.



The sad truth is that everybody's hearing goes down hill as they age. Do you send the old horse out to pasture just because he measures before he cuts?

So we should buy a product where the manufacturer saves cost by not listening to it? AFAIK, a lot of speakers are tested with standard amps to make sure they sound good. Your last comment is valid only if you know that the a particular manufacturer's hearing has gone down the hill - in which case I wouldn't trust his product

 

[slowGEEZR]

Point me to any speaker, much less a passive one, that has distortion figures that are better than even good midi. Seriously. Not that I don't believe you, but I'd really like to hear that speaker.

Tim

Tim, all I'm saying is that when my DAC was upgraded, my speakers became much less piercing. They had simply been reproducing what was sent to them.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Audio designers who only accept measured statistics and don't incorporate listening as part of product development are like Chefs who only trust ingredients without tasting.

 

[bonzo75]

Audio designers who only accept measured statistics and don't incorporate listening as part of product development are like Chefs who only trust ingredients without tasting.

+1 - newbies do that, read cookbooks and measure carefully. Those who are actually good cooks have an instinct for topping up the right ingredients to make the food tasty.

 

[arnyk]

So we should buy a product where the manufacturer saves cost by not listening to it?

Whether you know it or not you're asking me which product measurements I trust.

I trust measurements of DACs and amps more than I trust the measurements of speakers.

Have I bought speakers after looking at just their measurements? Yes.

AFAIK, a lot of speakers are tested with standard amps to make sure they sound good.

Seems pretty silly to me. Of course its revealed truth in the placebophile world that every component has a characteristic sound and every amp sounds different with every speaker and vice versa. If you trust DBTs - well, not so much.

I understand that lots of people trust DBTs far less than I do and I get that as well. I devised ABX to be exactly what I wanted. Ironically, I listened to it until it sounded right to me. ;-)

Your last comment is valid only if you know that the a particular manufacturer's hearing has gone down the hill - in which case I wouldn't trust his product

That's a choice you get to make. I may not agree. If someone tells me they listened a DAC or an amp into existence, I generally try to keep a straight face and graciously beat feet as quickly as I can.

 

[bonzo75]

I trust measurements of DACs and amps more than I trust the measurements of speakers.

Have I bought speakers after looking at just their measurements? Yes.

I will try to keep a straight face and graciously beat feet as quickly as I can

 

[andromedaaudio]

What causes it ?
Bad tweeterdesign( to a lesser extent mids woofers ) , bad tw serial cap design , bad housingdesign .

What relieves it ? reversing the above mentioned to SOTA .

 

[asiufy]

Daniel Weiss famously doesn't listen to Weiss products during development ,and why would he, he is an engineer Lloyd, he
designs the circuit and confirms by measurement.
I have the upmost respect for him and his companies equipment, the Weiss DAC202 is the best measuring piece of equipment that John Atkinson had measured in his 25 year career.
Keith.

If that's true (I doubt it is), it explains why they sound the way they sound...


alexandre

 

[rockitman]

Weiss has no 'sound' they are completely transparent ,as they should be , speaking of measurements from the best measuring ,Weiss Dac202 to the very worst!
http://www.stereophile.com/content/allnic-d-5000-dht-da-processor-measurements

Keith.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/allnic-d-5000-dht-da-processor-manufacturers-comment
Apparently there may have been a noisy tube...not unheard of. Seems like a lot of people are buying them and Atkinson will be re-measuring with a follow up report.

 

[arnyk]

http://www.stereophile.com/content/allnic-d-5000-dht-da-processor-manufacturers-comment
Apparently there may have been a noisy tube...not unheard of. Seems like a lot of people are buying them and Atkinson will be re-measuring with a follow up report.

Frequency response this poor is unlikely to be just a noisy tube:

 

[BlueFox]

http://www.stereophile.com/content/allnic-d-5000-dht-da-processor-manufacturers-comment
Apparently there may have been a noisy tube...not unheard of. Seems like a lot of people are buying them and Atkinson will be re-measuring with a follow up report.

According to the manufacturer's follow up comments:

Once the review DAC was returned to Allnic and Waversa Systems, their respective principals, Kang Su Park and Colin Shin, found that three of its four new old stock 3A5 DHT tubes were bad. Nothing else was amiss.

Personally, no matter how much some people will rave about tubes, there is no way I will buy such fragile, old technology.

 

[rockitman]

According to the manufacturer's follow up comments:



Personally, no matter how much some people will rave about tubes, there is no way I will buy such fragile, old technology.

I have no skin in the allnic digital game...digital a/d d/a on every level is inferior to my ears. That said, I think digital could be much more palatable with tube output stage.