Hallo cat3600, extending a wireless network wirelessly is the worst thing you can do, because it halves the data bandwidth on the wireless network. Always extend using a wired connection. So the Airport Express downstairs next to the Devialet has to be connected using a cable. And also use a WIFI Channel on the Airport Express that is three numbers distant from the other one upstairs to avoid influence.
Has anyone heard the Devialet D-Premier Integrated Amp/DAC
- Thread starter FrantzM
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What i have problems to understand is this wifi discussion….. Devialet is crystal clear how you should set up your wifi and what products to be used,also how to extend your network
Are we saying that they dont know what they talk about ??
I have followed the Devialet advice with a Time capsule and airport express ,dont have any problems like you describe
What i have problems to understand is this wifi discussion….. Devialet is crystal clear how you should set up your wifi and what products to be used,also how to extend your network
Are we saying that they dont know what they talk about ??
I have followed the Devialet advice with a Time capsule and airport express ,dont have any problems like you describe
With two Apple devices this is another situation as they are designed to work together. But cat3600 has one Apple Airport Express and a Wireless router from another brand and linking them together wireless to extend range is not good.
I also use only Apple Time Capsules, Airport Extremes and Airport Express since years. Because they work extremely good. Had no problems ever with them. The newer devices also support 5GHz for iPhone and iPad what has the advantage to make free the 2.4GHz Band for the Devialet.
But I think there is a lot of misunderstanding for WIFI setup, here. The D-Premiere has very low sensitivity, so the wireless router has to be very close to the Devialet to get good signal strength. But if the computer sending the music to the Devialet is using WLAN too, then also here the signal has to be strong. I think some people here do not have understanding of the big picture and only look at part of the game and then they have a lot of problems.
I also have no problem streaming 129/24 to the D-Premiere.
I have the same experience.
Router Airport Extreme wired to Airport Express which is creating a local network connecting Devialet D-Premiere and MacMini.
Streaming without problems using AIR2.1 and 6.0.9
On the other hand the Devialet is no iDevialet or iDevice at all. So it should do its work in every WiFi environment. As there is no special Apple-WiFi ;-) I am an Apple user too and I do not have a Problem with buying a Mac Mini if necessary. But I don't want to buy another router (Airport Extreme) just for the Devialet. Everything else in our house is working well with the Fritz!Box since years. So I will try WiFi and if it does not work I may go for USB or Ethernet connection. As Devialet Said without a drop in sound quality.
In my experience this post summarises the essential about the problems ins discussion.
I only want to add some proposals that may be very useful for other users: (i) never forget that the topology of the network created with Apple devices is "in star", never sequential; (ii) so, if the distance between the rooter (in my home, two stages up...) and the Airport Express near Devialet (and computer) weakens the signal below the minimum values established on Devialet site (and they must be significantly above, to avoid drop outs and bad music quality, IMO), one obvious (among others) solution consists on establishing a physical (ethernet cable) link between the two mentioned devices.
By the way, I agree Devialet is not, and never can be, something like a "i-Devialet"!
But an OS based on an absolutely solid and reliable "Unix/Linux" makes all the difference! The difference of making that a very complex system works with something that I visualise as an nameless mess of software... It's my IMHO.
Declaration of Interests: I've been a Windows (I've been user of the first commercial version of the Windows interface of MS-DOS) user for long, long years, so I have some experience about it... Much more recently I changed to the Mac's - I'm not sorry about: imagine, I'm working with a system were I don't care about virus and firewalls and so on!...
You are looking a this totally wrong. To extend an existing WLAN network over WLAN there are different implementations from different companies and no real standard. For this reason this only works optimal between two apple devices or two devices of another company that implement such thing. Also a lot of routers, access points and so on from different brands do not really work reliably. This is not so obvious if no constant large data stream is needed.
Also you do not have to buy a Mac Min special for this because this is not the problem. The problem is always the network infrastructure.
An with a new Devialet that has the wired possibility this is the way to go anyway.
What I find interesting is, that you worry about quality drop when you are using cable LAN instead of WLAN.
Even when comparing SPDIF on the D-Premiere to AIR it is not always so that AIR works better because in the past AIR suffered in some firmware versions from sound degrading things.
And I can guarantee you from extensive experiments I have done, that loudspeaker slection, loudspeaker placement, room treatment (carpets, furniture and so on), power cable, loudspeaker cables have much much more influence to good sound than any connection variation on the Devialet.
And regarding loudspeaker selection: It has very little significance if a loudspeaker with the Devialet works in any dealer demonstration or not. It has to work in the own room. You only can do some preselection on the dealer site and then take different speakers home and try it in your environment because the environment has enormous influence on the way a speaker makes the sound in a room.
Everything is her connected to each other in real time and only optimizing the combination will be successful.
So it is not astonishing that often presentations of Devialet amps in combination with really good speakers do sound so terrible in demonstrations. The Devialet and good speakers are particular sensitive to their environment as they can push enormous energy in short time into the room, which the room has to handle correctly and the walls, floor, ceiling, furniture has to diffuse, absorb and to some degree to reflect.
I was not talking about extending WiFi by WiFi but WiFi in general and the problems some users do have with their Devialet connected by WiFi.
I did not say I worry about and summed up what Devialet said to it some days ago also. See some postings abough. A lot of users asked (here and in other forums) if the sound quality might suffer not using AIR by WiFi as postulated by Devialet. And - as far as I could read here and elsewhere - no one did a A/B comparison with the new Devialets yet. Where do these thoughts come from? From Devialet who remembered again and again an again, that no cable is the best cable. And even when users have problems with their WiFi and ask for help on Devialets site, they are told to try this and that and go for other hardware and so on and so on. Not one word about using USB or ethernet instead of WiFi. They should explain all that possibilities on their website an discuss pros and cons if there are any IMO.
Hey guys I know we are always debating streaming vs USB etc. I found an interesting article on this topic and why indeed streaming is the best option!
http://cybwiz.blogspot.ca/2013/07/why-ethernet-streaming-sound-better.html
http://cybwiz.blogspot.ca/2013/07/why-ethernet-streaming-sound-better.html
Ok people I was reading all the above thread and while I am not a network engineer I have enough experience in streaming over the years, as almost everything I have is connected to some sort of streaming audio/video. There was a lot of different advice and opinions from all of you, and thank you for all the input. I know I went quite crazy with all the wireless issues, this was mainly due to One reason, the Devialet's streaming technology is very sensitive and it threw me off quite a bit, as I kept trying to solve the issues based on my Experiences with my other devices.
To everyone who said that I had 2 different manufacturer for routers etc. one Apple Extreme (4th Gen) and the other Linksys EA6500 AC and that was creating a problem, this is simply not true. Please understand wireless standards are based on a universal protocol such as G, N and AC. So it does not matter which manufacturer one uses as they all have to conform to that draft for it to be certified. Can you imagine how many different Ethernet or Network equipment you are going through just to access this webpage around the world, so they are all working in harmony as they are sticking to this draft/protocol for communication.
I have completely solved my problems with the same equipment and network but it took a lot of trial and error and panic posting by me
My router Linksys EA6500 AC (still upstairs) > is wirelessly connected to my Linksys WUMC710 AC Bridge Downstairs (this has been my setup for a while) > from one of the Ethernet ports on this bridge > I ran an Ethernet cable to the WLAN port of Apple Extreme. I then set up the Apple Extreme in (Bridge mode) to create a new network (I called it Devialet Air - just for fun). Loaded the SD card with this new network and BAM now I have solid connection -20 to -22 db.
The problem is if one is trying to bridge/extend 2.4 N to 2.4 N wireless this wont happen especially with the Devialet's sensitive wi-fi. But in my case I did it through the 5 GHz AC network, even though this is completely wirelessy connected. Also it does not matter where I point the AC bridge in relation to my AC router upstairs (its not sensitive to location) guess the advantage of the AC tecnology. But it does matter where I position the Apple Airport Extreme in relation to the Devialet > outside the cabinet door closed -25 db inside the cabinet sitting beside Devialet -21db (limitation of 2.4 N and also the sensitivity of the Devialets wi-fi module).
Now I am in music Nirvana after 10 days of struggling
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I don't think the solution is due to the AC protocol, basically what you are doing is setting up a separate network through the Airport express. The computer will connect to the airport express through your newly created Devialet Air network and from there to the Devialet. That is it, the connection you have to the Liknsys through the WLAN is just a gate to internet. In this case the position of the airport express is crucial, where the position of your linksys is important only for your internet connection that could suffer if the signal between the 2 linksys is weak, in this case the AC protocol can help.
Anyway the important thing is that the system work.
My computer is upstairs connected to the Linksys router via Ethernet cable directly and not connected to any Wi-Fi network wirelessly 2.4 or 5 for that matter, FYI
Did a bunch of changes to the Apple Airport Extreme, took it off auto b/g/n and auto channel and fixed it to just 'n' and channel to 11, signal now is -15 dBm to -16 dBm.
Now able to play 24/192 music, but will still disconnect after a bit, hmmmmm!! Can the signal be even better than this, or this is as good as it gets - 15dBm? Can't imagine that it is still stuttering with hi bitrate files!!
I have target device buffer set at 100 ms on the AIR 2.1 software. What else can I do, now I will say that Devialet has issues with its wireless system!!!!!!!
Edit: Further refined my 5 GHz Network as my Apple Airport extreme is feeding of that - Fixed channel width to 20 MHz and took off channel from auto and fixed to 165. Much more stable and not stuttering anymore 24/192. This is a lot of tweaking and I think most people wont go to such lengths.
Now able to play 24/192 music, but will still disconnect after a bit, hmmmmm!! Can the signal be even better than this, or this is as good as it gets - 15dBm? Can't imagine that it is still stuttering with hi bitrate files!!
I have target device buffer set at 100 ms on the AIR 2.1 software. What else can I do, now I will say that Devialet has issues with its wireless system!!!!!!!
Edit: Further refined my 5 GHz Network as my Apple Airport extreme is feeding of that - Fixed channel width to 20 MHz and took off channel from auto and fixed to 165. Much more stable and not stuttering anymore 24/192. This is a lot of tweaking and I think most people wont go to such lengths.
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Last weekend I had a good listening session without any hitch, to be honest I didn't play more than CD quality 44/16 but I didn't have any drop or disconnection.
My db reading is between -9 and -12 so I think you are pretty close to that and I am using the lower buffer that is available on AIR (25ms I think).
From what you have described there is still a question mark in your set up and it is the wirless transmission between your linksys. I have a similar bridge set up but everything up to the wireless router is tethered. So my computer goes through ethernet to a router (wifi disabled) that is the gateway to the modem, this router is plugged into my ethernet network that run through all the house, in the same room where the devialet is I have connected my wireless router in bridge mode without creating any network ad hoc. So everything is cabled up to the last bit that is the wireless element.
In your set up you have your computer going into a router that then transmit the data wireless to another router that then transmit the same data to another router that then transmit wirelessly the data to the devialet. every possible delay happening in these 2 wireless connection can be the problem. Even if on different channel they could create interference between them.
My understanding is that the Devialet is very sensitive to network because has no internal caching so the stream has to be continuous without fluctuation. Video gear, for example apple tv, have an internal way to cache data so they build up internally a buffer that supplies the fluctuation of internet connection or streaming.
I don't disagree that devialet could still have streaming problem but before declaring it without doubt you should try an ultimate set up where you get rid of the first wireless connection between the two linksys routers and see if the problem persist.
Hope this helps
Thanks for the tips lets see what I can do, did not know the Devialet has no internal caching. It is playing 24/192, played one whole album and then dropped connection again. Will keep refining.
I will say the new 240, 170 or an updated D-premier with Ethernet connected physically will be the most full proof setup. I don't think the sound quality will be different with a Ethernet connected vs only AIR, as I don't buy into the "no cable is better" as AIR is just not a physical cable. Lets see what the new owners with Ethernet enabled Devialet has to say. But I think the new review of the 170 which just came out was done with Ethernet and was more stable.
Speaking only about my experience, I can't obviously speak about the quality of the music we will listen with the new ethernet connector; the same thing about the USB connection.
But I can say you that listening Devialet D Premier (as with any other comparable system) with good (audiophile) quality is - as Oelli widely explained before - a matter of coherence between the quality of the different elements of the electronics chain, is behaviour at the place where it is supposed to play and ... the quality of the support used for the music we listen.
So I can say you that with my system, listening a good quality CD in a transport Metronome T3 A Signature, interconnected with Devialet by AES-EBU/XLR, the music that I hear blowing from my Wilson Audio Sophia II is sublime.
I've also a NAS dedicated to store music (Classic, Jazz, ...) that I listen with the Devialet Air system. What I can say about, is that the quality of the music I listen is similar, as the music file has also a very good quality.
The most music I use in this way is CD definition; sometimes I experiments 24/96. And, not having experienced enough, my impression is that the so called "high definition" is not automatically equals a better music quality improvement; sometimes that's the case, but in others..., no at all! I've the idea that this kind of buy, store and play high quality music has yet some way to do and some "other things" to regulate...
But I must finish, and my synthesis is that I will continue listening Devialet (and the other elements of the chain), using all its different ways of exploring the different supports of Music (I'm dreaming on buying an anagogic table to listen the magnificent reissues of ancient LP...).
Nevertheless I must to congratulate and support for the idea and all the efforts that the Devialet team have been made and continue improving to buid up a very advanced wireless platform that allows people listening high quality music "without wires"! I myself have - I think - already too much cables; and they are not at all cheap stuff!
The SSHHHHH loud signal happened when I was using a 240 with Ethernet, it was frequent with 192/24 files. The 240 could not access the Wi-fi signal...
As I have many SACD and was not satisfied by the instability of my 240, I went back to a Premier. Installed it tonight.
The installer had trouble with my network password. It is a 32 character phrase and it works with all my wi-fi hardware, but not with either the 240 or the Premier.
The solution found was to use a smaller paswword of no more than 26 characters. So every clients of Devialet, beware of long secure passwords.
The Air 2.1 worked like a charm except when I tried to listen to hi-rez files of 192/24...Same loud SSHHHHH loud signal...
So I can confirm that it is probably a Dac problem, as it happened with either a Ethernet or a Wi-fi input.
My dealer was present and will phone to Devialet engineers. :b
Very strange indeed that it should happen with the Ethernet. A couple of days ago it happened to me with my signal level at - 16 to -20 dBm playing 24/192 and normal files as well 16/44, also my music would suddenly stop playing for no reason after a while in spite of a strong signal.
Today I went and bought a new Apple Airport Express (2nd Gen) and the signal has been - 9 to - 11 dBm sitting right next to the Devialet. Amongst my 24/192 files I have 5 albums of Eagles which are all 24/192 and I have been playing them, it ran quite well for a while with no dropouts and then suddenly SSSSHHHHHH noise again!!!!
There is some issue wireless or Ethernet obviously. I have to turn off the Devialet and turn it on again a couple of times till the AIR signal goes from Red to normal and then all is back to normal.
So I don't think the signal can get any better than - 9 dBm which leads me to think Devialet has to look into this issues and stop denying everything is ok as its clearly not, the dropped signal or sound is bad but when it makes this SSSSSHHHH noise it is very disconcerting! I will send them an email in the morning.
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