Headphones and soundstaging

[Vincent Kars]

Another one like the smyth: http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/headspeaker.shtml

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Interesting that people still haven't got it: at high volume levels as far as our ears are concerned, automatic compression in the ear/brain takes place, everything is adjusted so that that our auditory senses are not overloaded. Everytime a muso, including yourself, gets into close contact with others similarly doing their thing this kicks in, this is why "real" music sounds like it does: it's very loud, compared to how most people listen to audio systems, but not uncomfortable, it just feels intense and enveloping, which is why musos get a kick out of it.

And putting your ear next to speaker drivers not pumping out distorted sound is experiencing the same thing, there's no "incredible" about it at all ...

Frank

What's interesting, Frank, is that this reply to my post is irrelevant to the issues I raised, which had to do with your claims that you heard perfect stereo imaging and perfect driver coherence with your ear right in front one driver. Nice technique, though: If you'll look foolish answering the question at hand, jus provide a perfectly reasonable answer to a question that hasn't been asked. As I believe I've said before, you've missed your calling. You'd make a successful American Congressman.

Tim

 

[fas42]

What's interesting, Frank, is that this reply to my post is irrelevant to the issues I raised, which had to do with your claims that you heard perfect stereo imaging and perfect driver coherence with your ear right in front one driver. Nice technique, though: If you'll look foolish answering the question at hand, jus provide a perfectly reasonable answer to a question that hasn't been asked. As I believe I've said before, you've missed your calling. You'd make a successful American Congressman.

Tim

Tim, I'm not trying to push your buttons, I'm just trying to get a point across: that when a system works at a certain level of quality it jumps to another level of apparent performance: Vince, Roger, Mike and others get it. You, as a long term muso get it with the real thing, but you can also get with an audio setup. The driver coherence and imaging thing happens because your ear/brain is no longer trying to pinpoint precisely where every tiny element of the sound is coming from, it integrates the direct and reflected sound into a coherent soundscape that makes sense to the brain. Many people have stated that when they listen to real, loud music that the normal hifi imaging elements just don't exist, the brain's working in a different zone.

That's all it is ...

BTW, Robert who used to be active here, and kicked off my truth and tonality thread, is still active on Audiogon, has also finally got it, with CD too. Blasphemy!! A visitor commented: even so-so CD's sound amazingly impressive ...

Dear, oh dear ...

Frank

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Another one like the smyth: http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/headspeaker.shtml

There are some questionable statements here. First, they say that HRTF only works if head position is fixed but that is not so. We use head movements to sample the sound field with out HRTF filters. Second, their implementation of HRTF simulation is generic (chosen from a data base) while the Smyth implementation is matched to the user as it is based on in-ear personal measurements. Third, their soundfield models are, also, generic while the Smyth models are, again, based on actual room/systems via the matched HRTF. As for the head-tracking function, it is somewhat useful, imho, but not as critical as the preceding.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, I'm not trying to push your buttons, I'm just trying to get a point across: that when a system works at a certain level of quality it jumps to another level of apparent performance: Vince, Roger, Mike and others get it. You, as a long term muso get it with the real thing, but you can also get with an audio setup. The driver coherence and imaging thing happens because your ear/brain is no longer trying to pinpoint precisely where every tiny element of the sound is coming from, it integrates the direct and reflected sound into a coherent soundscape that makes sense to the brain. Many people have stated that when they listen to real, loud music that the normal hifi imaging elements just don't exist, the brain's working in a different zone.

Dear, oh dear ...

Frank

You're not pushing my buttons, Frank, but you are changing your story from time to time as your arguments run out of steam. And then other times you are persistently standing by complete nonsense. This is one of the best examples, though not the only one. Your ear is right in front of the super tweeter. Which means the full-range driver is an inch away, pointed at the side of your neck. Yet you hear perfect driver coherence. Utter nonsense. Vince, Roger, Mike? Do you guys "get" this?

Tim

 

[fas42]

You're not pushing my buttons, Frank, but you are changing your story from time to time as your arguments run out of steam.

Probably not here, but perhaps on my system thread you might just like to nominate where you believe I changed my story. Just so we can sort it out properly ...

Just out of interest, here's the first response ever you made to some of my "outlandish" claims, back in the beginning of January:

I want some of whatever Frank is having!

Trouble is, lovely and ambitious as it may be, this "goal" is simply impossible:

No recording you have is a bad recording; every performance can be appreciated fully as a musical event because ALL disturbing distortion is EFFECTIVELY rendered inaudible or irrelevant. As examples, big band swing tracks from the early 1930's, primitively recorded blues artists, Jimi Hendrix in concert, current compressed to the max, in your face material
* To be able to play all those recordings at maximum volume, that is, just before the point where the amplifier starts clipping, with complete ease and "transparency"

I hate to be a killjoy, but anything in a reproduction system that would effectively render all disturbing distortion in the recording inaudible or irrelevant would create a masking effect on good recordings that would be devastating. If anything could do that at all. And of course it can't. The distortions in a crude recording from the early 1930s are very different from the ones in a brick-walled, juiced up, contemporary pop record. To even attempt to address all of the possible recording problems one could encounter from early blues and jazz records to the recording train wreck that is "Layla and Assorted Love Songs" to the balls to the wall unlistenable loudness of Springsteen's Magic would take a whole studio full of processing tools, not a playback system. And the attempt may improve things, but it would fall far short of the goal.

Hope springs eternal, Frank, but if you heard something 25 years ago that told you that's what playback systems are capable of, well, we all need some of what you're having. Do tell.

Tim

So some things have remained the same ...

Frank

 

[RogerD]

You're not pushing my buttons, Frank, but you are changing your story from time to time as your arguments run out of steam. And then other times you are persistently standing by complete nonsense. This is one of the best examples, though not the only one. Your ear is right in front of the super tweeter. Which means the full-range driver is an inch away, pointed at the side of your neck. Yet you hear perfect driver coherence. Utter nonsense. Vince, Roger, Mike? Do you guys "get" this?

Tim

Hi Tim,

Lol, IMHO, one of the hardest things to reproduce is a homogeneous and coherent sound stage that creates or mimics the actual recording venue and performance. I have no doubt that the mind plays a part in completing this grand illusion .This quality of illusion is totally system dependent in every regard,

I owned a set of Stax electrostatics years ago very nice and enjoyable. If your looking for scale and realism of a actual performance I'll take a conventional system. I always enjoyed my Stax phones for the privacy and somewhat intimate sound they produced.

 

[RogerD]

I might ask is it possible to have a endorphin like rush with headphones. I guess some would call it audio nirvana. Now that is brain related,as well as system and recording dependent. The way I would describe it is that the soundstage wraps around the listener and the brain goes into creation of this sonic phenomenon.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Probably not here, but perhaps on my system thread you might just like to nominate where you believe I changed my story. Just so we can sort it out properly ...

Just out of interest, here's the first response ever you made to some of my "outlandish" claims, back in the beginning of January:



So some things have remained the same ...

Frank

Oh...no doubt. Your basic premises are remarkably consistent and repeated throughout the forums in the context of many audio topics...whether your basic premises were relevant to those topics or not. This nonsense in a headphone thread is a pretty good example.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I might ask is it possible to have a endorphin like rush with headphones.

Absolutely. That rush, I think, has much more to do with the brain and the music than it does with the system, though sufficient enveloping with pleasant enough fidelity is sure helpful, I've gotten it most often with headphones, actually. But that's probably because I was listening to IEMs while doing cardio at the time .

Tim

 

[fas42]

whether your basic premises were relevant to those topics or not. This nonsense in a headphone thread is a pretty good example.

Tim

The original point I was reacting to was this statement by yourself:

Not to mention that the drivers are just millimeters from your ear drums. You want to A/B something for audibility? Headphones are your best bet.

Apparently my implication that you can use the same technique for speakers is definitely OT ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The original point I was reacting to was this statement by yourself:


Apparently my implication that you can use the same technique for speakers is definitely OT ...

Frank

If you still think we're talking about the same thing, you don't understand the topic at all. Back to headphones...

Tim

 

[Lee]

The headphone systems from these guys most definitely creates a soundstage. It even does this for surround: http://www.smyth-research.com/

The demos I have heard are uncanny. You put on and remove the headphones and listen to speakers and you can't tell the difference!

That said, I have not kept up with it as of late and thought I heard of some issues.

I also heard a demo at CEDIA in 2010. Amazing demonstration.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

That said, I have not kept up with it as of late and thought I heard of some issues.

Issues?

 

[efc]

Look at Smyth Research Realiser A8...: http://www.smyth-research.com/products.html.
eric

 

[Bruce B]

The best/coolest effect I've heard on headphones emulating the effect of speakers/room is the SPL Phonitor.

 

[amirm]

Thanks Bruce. That was fun to watch. Wish they had recorded a simulation of it working though.

 

[Randy Bessinger]

I have the system and have not heard of any issues although the latest unit has HDMI inputs/outputs I beleive so maybe there?? Don't really know.