hello!
- Thread starter infinitely baffled
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Another fan of Trentemøller here. Here is one of my favorite tracks of them: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003A3K37O?redirect=true&ref_=cm_cr_ryp_prd_ttl_sol_0
I think the synthesizer loops used in some European music is a turn off for many Americans. I enjoy them though
have you checked out 'the last resort' - trentemoller?
i had a mini routine for almost a month. climb a mountain with the dogs, return home, do my chores and then sit down for a smoke and a listen.
begin with 'this is all yours' by alt-j, and then, since that album is absolute perfection, i find a genre swap to 'the last resort' makes the perfect foil to the other-worldly sounds of alt-j.
and then a dip into the 'late night tales' bonobo compilation often saw me doze off, to be awoken by benedict cumberbach's spoken word piece at the end of the album. bliss!
hello Mark
the paradigms would be for my domestic system, the BB's are for outside.
i have some plans of the amphitheatre, i will post them asap, but i need to have a little compassion for my architect as this is his 'flat out' time of year and i've already roped him into my discussion with vicoustic...
with your permission i will drop you a pm when i have them posted?
would be very interested to hear your opinions
Amir you are touching on a point that may be an issue?
when i showed an electrician friend of mine the specs of the paradigm sub 2, he said the power requirements might exceed what even uk mains can deliver?
so if we are talking two or even four sub2's, even my dedicated amp circuits will struggle?
i had been thinking that running additional subs means each one won't be running as hard, but in the light of what you have said above about cancellation i am beginning to wonder again?
It turned out that sixteen 8-inch woofers wasn't enough..... so yesterday I added another sixteen and started to play European music
View attachment 21507
that looks sensational Gary!
(ok maybe not the shirt
)just seeing that setup makes me want to experience this:
river of bass - underworld
https://youtu.be/sZR9ipkbsOQ
and then:
https://youtu.be/I9gpDF7Le2M?list=FL9xsF1sAMfWlIcJdWxeYIew
this was the intelligent drum and bass track that embarrassed the klipsch dealer after a mere 26 seconds. i believe one can find nuance and shading in the sub 25hz region here.... but i would also hazard that neither of these tracks will sound right unless played on vinyl.
the underworld track is a true room-shaker, the rogue unit offering has complex rhythms interplaying with complex basslines that convey space, movement, power and focus
I should have been clear that what I wrote was about their use in indoor situations, i.e. a room, not outdoor. In that context, the mother of all references on effect of one or more subs is summarized, well kind of with 72 slides
, here: http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White Papers/multsubs.pdf. The AES paper is better and more detailed in this regard but the presentation has this useful chart:
"LF Factor" is total output power. As you see, it declines as the number of subs is increased in the specific configurations simulated. Ultimately the right number and placement is a compromise between efficiency and smooth response. Four subs in corners for example is more efficient due to corner loading but not quite as good as four in center of each wall.
that certainly is very challenging...I use this Infected Mushroom track to see how clean the basslines can be performed. At the last RMAF a certain panel speaker bottomed out pretty badly at normal volumes
https://youtu.be/GiXlhwI5xHQ
i think the album art alone might be enough require counselling if displayed september through november in this neck of the woods!
i think i am the one who may have been unclear Amir. the 4 x paradigm sub2 idea is for the domestic, interior system, and is most definitely up for debate.
for the outdoor amphitheatre 4 x big bertha is the way to go, and i'm settled on that
now i just have to read (and understand) your very helpful links
Ah, good
.I should note that multiple subwoofers here refers to them being in different locations. If you co-located them, then they act as one combined sub. We utilized that in our theater as we placed the subs in the center walls for smoothest response, but then doubled them up to get higher output:
Each of those JBL in-wall subs has two drivers. So the four you see is two units. There are three others on other walls.
Ah, good
I should note that multiple subwoofers here refers to them being in different locations. If you co-located them, then they act as one combined sub. We utilized that in our theater as we placed the subs in the center walls for smoothest response, but then doubled them up to get higher output:
Each of those JBL in-wall subs has two drivers. So the four you see is two units. There are three others on other walls.
that is a thing of beauty. i'd be very proud to have built something like that.
it also makes me wonder.
i had an infinitely baffled subwoofer scheme which got as far as strengthening the ceiling and cutting a hole big enough for two manifolds, each with five 18" drivers.
but then, the more time i spent living in this location, i began to realise that i didn't want to face the wall listening to music, city style, but instead look out of the window onto the landscape.
this meant a 180 degree re-orientation of the listening space, and left my manifold location not the same distance from the listening position as the main speakers, but much closer, in fact half the distance between main speakers and seat. i deemed this too close, and, in the absence of any suitable void at the other end of the room (now the speaker end) i abandoned my plan.
but in your professional build i see the subs, as you say, in the centre of the room.
do you think i was too hasty in abandoning my project?
i should mention my IB subs were intended purely for audio use, my av system is elsewhere.
thank you for your opinions
gav
I think the synthesizer loops used in some European music is a turn off for many Americans. I enjoy them though
i think gentle introductions are probably in order. this is the type of thing that converted me.
'discovery' by ultramarine
https://youtu.be/OGADr_syFFk
If you roll off your subs below 80 Hz, you can put them anywhere relative to listening locations. If there are not structural rattles and buzzes, you won't be able to localize them. And if you cross them much lower for extreme low bass, then even room modes don't matter since only one of them likely will effect it and by adjusting your seating position, that can be taken care of.
Amir your post has had a fairly profound result...i'm now thinking the IB sub could be back on
i have been reading some of Mark Seaton's threads, and the more impressed i am with the level of knowledge, experience and skill required to get the best out of subwwofers, the more convinced i am that i would prefer to do it with professional help; to do it right, as it were.
the problem is i have never heard of anyone in the uk with that level of ability....multiple sub installations, IB subs, all seem to have strong roots in the US
do you know of any highly-regarded sub builders / room designers who (can) operate in the uk?
i am in contact with Vicoustic regarding sound treatments, but not subwoofers. i don't believe this is their area of expertise.
i have a slight headstart as we have inserted steel beams into the ceiling to carry the weight of up to twelve 18" drivers and two manifolds, as calculated by my structural engineer. but having read the level of development and testing required to get the locations, dsp and filtering right i have little confidence i could manage it without extensive help, and would probably prefer to hand the project over wholesale to the right minds.
can you think of anyone who might be interested?
many thanks and best wishes
gavin
i have been reading some of Mark Seaton's threads, and the more impressed i am with the level of knowledge, experience and skill required to get the best out of subwwofers, the more convinced i am that i would prefer to do it with professional help; to do it right, as it were.
the problem is i have never heard of anyone in the uk with that level of ability....multiple sub installations, IB subs, all seem to have strong roots in the US
do you know of any highly-regarded sub builders / room designers who (can) operate in the uk?
i am in contact with Vicoustic regarding sound treatments, but not subwoofers. i don't believe this is their area of expertise.
i have a slight headstart as we have inserted steel beams into the ceiling to carry the weight of up to twelve 18" drivers and two manifolds, as calculated by my structural engineer. but having read the level of development and testing required to get the locations, dsp and filtering right i have little confidence i could manage it without extensive help, and would probably prefer to hand the project over wholesale to the right minds.
can you think of anyone who might be interested?
many thanks and best wishes
gavin
Hi Gavin. Low frequency optimizations can definitely benefit from expert knowledge. So you have arrived at the right conclusions. Unfortunately I don't know who practices the science in UK.
The good news is that if your budget allows, all the world-class acoustic designers do remote designs for deployment anywhere in the world including the UK. Most of the work can be done without a site visit by furnishing drawings of the room, construction detail, etc. With that information, you will then receive detailed designs that you can then deploy yourself. The cost starts around $5,000 and more realistically approaches $10K. If you are interested in going this route, my recommendation is to contact Keith Yates: http://www.keithyates.com/previous/index.html. Let them know that I sent you. Even if you are not willing to spend the money yet, an initial discussion with them on scope and such may be educational. And they may have referrals to people in UK that can help.
Mark Seaton may also be able to help so I would PM him here and seek his views also. And our own Nyall may also be able to do this work at lower cost (I am just guessing).
The good news is that if your budget allows, all the world-class acoustic designers do remote designs for deployment anywhere in the world including the UK. Most of the work can be done without a site visit by furnishing drawings of the room, construction detail, etc. With that information, you will then receive detailed designs that you can then deploy yourself. The cost starts around $5,000 and more realistically approaches $10K. If you are interested in going this route, my recommendation is to contact Keith Yates: http://www.keithyates.com/previous/index.html. Let them know that I sent you. Even if you are not willing to spend the money yet, an initial discussion with them on scope and such may be educational. And they may have referrals to people in UK that can help.
Mark Seaton may also be able to help so I would PM him here and seek his views also. And our own Nyall may also be able to do this work at lower cost (I am just guessing).
I use Trentemoller Last Resort on my ref cut disc for audio demos- people usually dig it. It levels many unworthy systems
Amir that is stupendously helpful. i am very much obliged to you
i will keep this thread updated
i will keep this thread updated
I use Trentemoller Last Resort on my ref cut disc for audio demos- people usually dig it. It levels many unworthy systems
awesome, isn't it?
may i also recommend 'oto' by fluke. it is my absolute reference, and so far every audio manufacturer i have introduced to it has gone on to add it to their dem playlist
awesome, isn't it?
may i also recommend 'oto' by fluke. it is my absolute reference, and so far every audio manufacturer i have introduced to it has gone on to add it to their dem playlist
My "go-to" for minimal techno/electronica has been either this:
Or this:
Robert Henke says of Silence:
"The music on this album has not been compressed, limited or maximized at any production stage. Why not?
Once upon a time, music had dynamics. There were loud parts, and there were more quiet parts. Then came radio. In radio there is a technical limit for the transmittable maximum volume. As a consequence the average level of music with a high dynamic range is lower than the average level of music with a low dynamic range. The loudest possible music in radio is music where every element is constantly hitting the limit, music with no dynamics at all. Radio, and more recently mp3 players and laptop speakers influenced the way popular music is composed, produced and mastered: Every single event has to be at maximum level all the time. This works best with music that is sonically simple, and music in which only a few elements are interacting. A symphony does not sound convincing thru a mobile phone speaker, and a maximized symphony does not sound convincing at all.
Monolake is about complexity, about details, about the elastic tension between beats in the foreground and textural elements in the background. We want to preserve that balance as much as possible in the final product and this is why the music on this album is produced without applying any compression. This is not a 'dogma', it is just a personal decission for this release.
About the mastering: Mastering was done entierly in the analog domain, using a selection of vintage and high end EQs running at 'hot levels'. This impies there is a certain degree of saturation going on in very loud parts due to electrical characteristis of the tubes, transistors and audio transformers involved, but that's it as far as nonlinear behaviour is concerned."
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