If you have reservations regarding the commitment well sorted RTR takes, you made the right decision. Spend the money on optimizing your vinyl playback if you feel there is room to grow there.
Help me w/reservations about taking the R2R tape plunge...
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
- Start date
Yes, this is the most critical part of the R2R adventure, IMHO you took the proper decision. If I was not able to be self sufficient keeping the machines in top condition, I would never have entered the reign of the Emperor Of the Known Universe.
I also do not know of any local technician able to maintain top R2R equipment.Now you're talking. Christian, that's the only conclusion to draw. You helped me a little while back on a related thread where you pretty much said bigger bang for buck still to be had for maxxing out my tt, tape should be just considered the cherry on the cake, and I'm sure this is right. I'm looking at eeking another 10% fom my tt - just ordered a Symposium Acoustics Quantum Signature shelf w/Rollerblocks, and will aim to isolate brilliantly w/a Spiers And Robertson air rolling shelf, in effect a precision lab grade alternative to a Vibrapane (isolation good to 3Hz).
In effect: floor<NorthWest Analogue spiked single tier solid slate table<Spiers air shelf<3 Rollerblocks<Quantum Signature shelf<tt (w/3 magnetic isolating feet). Have high hopes for this. Not at the same level as your AF1, but a giant killer at my tt's price range.
I feel so calm I've made this decision, and stuck to areas I'm more familiar with.
Just a tenuous link back to tape, and this has it's own thread, but I could spend the same cash I might have done on tapes, upon Hot Stamper vinyl instead. Your thoughts, experience if any?
Yes, this is the most critical part of the R2R adventure, IMHO you took the proper decision. If I was not able to be self sufficient keeping the machines in top condition, I would never have entered the reign of the Emperor Of the Known Universe.
Micro, remiss of me not to give you a name check w/the others, will be put right soon Sir, LOL...
I'm very fond of analogies so another one, but switch off now if you're a little prudish
...Considering entering the world of tape reminds me of the time when I was a little younger, more interested in the opposite sex than anything else (yes, even more than cable elevators, shocking), and I had the chance to attend certain parties, w/partygoers a little older than me, more experienced and more worldly wise.
The frisson of excitement of fun to be had was tinged w/anxiety that, well, I might be taking on a little too much, and I'm ashamed to say, I bottled it. I actually probably made the right decision, but who knows for sure.
The world of tape does seem like a slightly over sophisticated club where not only is the membership fee steep, but the rules are so stringent, and so much expected of one, that inital joy could turn to stress, and eventual ejection back to street level where the Proletariat are stuck w/"mere" vinyl and digital.
God knows where dsd 256 afficionados fits into this pretty poor analogy!!! Do they join the tape "club" and hold their own, or get ejected toute suite?
If you buy one of Greg's decks, or a J-corder Technics, setup and alignment is ridiculously easy, and given the number of hours you will likely put on the deck, I would say maintenance (for those) is not likely to be an issue. If those are really your main objections, you should reconsider and go reel.
Rbert, not THE main one, there are so "many" main ones. It's just that I have to justify spending on another piece of expensive hardware, that could go twds eg a tt upgrade, or horns. Expenditure on tapes is of a magnitude more than I'm used to (not gone down the vintage Deccas/Mercurys/Hot Stampers route as of yet), I'm getting VERY conflicting advice on decks. And even when these are reconciled, another world of hurt can open up when the stuff is in my room, and I run it all for real.
I'm perturbed by how much care has to go into humidity/temperature/direct sunlight considerations re the tapes themselves.
My decision is not final (I always say no more upgrading, and still continue), but I remain conflicted on going ahead, and I can't justify things beyond a certain point to allow my mind to relax into a decision to proceed.
But a bit like dsd, x2, x4, and a possible move to buy a GG that I'm deferring for different reasons, I'm deferring tape, not banishing the decision. Those spinning reels are too much in my analog DNA to ignore it forever,
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I am not a proponent of that hot stamper guy who charges through the nose and scratches off the matrix numbers so you can't buy some yourself on eBay verified by Discogs. I do the homework on discogs and look for those pressings on eBay, usually for a fraction of the cost that guy peddles his stuff for. Not saying that his hot stampers can't be great...I just don't like his business model and choose to look for the ultimate pressing of a given title myself.
I've had semi-pro (or "prosumer") decks most of my life, and know many others with similar experience. Since the mid-70's, finding a good maintenance and repair source has been an issue, it's not really much if any worse today. OTOH, the quality of machinery you would buy new or reconditioned today is considerably better than it used to be. Likewise, the technical properties of the tape itself are considerably better than older stock, and storage conditions are not nearly as much a cocnern. My only concern would be the cost of reels and the limited program material; if those aren't significant issues for you then you are making a mistake not getting into R2R (IMHO, of course).
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Let me see if I can change your mind.
Why not get a nice $3K to $4K deck in 100% working condition and a couple of tapes you like. No fancy outboard amps, no nothing. Hook that up and take a listen. If it doesn't grab you, then put them up for sale and you should be able to get most of your money back. Meanwhile you would have acquired the kind of knowledge that none of us can parlay in words. If on the other hand you find it enjoyable, you can get your girlfriend to listen and then look at upgrading in the future. Meanwhile you can build up your library of tapes.
PM Ki Choi and see what the options would be for such an animal.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Let me see if I can change your mind.
Why not get a nice $3K to $4K deck in 100% working condition and a couple of tapes you like. No fancy outboard amps, no nothing. Hook that up and take a listen. If it doesn't grab you, then put them up for sale and you should be able to get most of your money back. Meanwhile you would have acquired the kind of knowledge that none of us can parlay in words. If on the other hand you find it enjoyable, you can get your girlfriend to listen and then look at upgrading in the future. Meanwhile you can build up your library of tapes.
PM Ki Choi and see what the options would be for such an animal.
Amirm, I salute your faith I can bring my GF around to the concept of tape, but it ain't gonna happen. No, this is one spend I'm struggling to justify. In the event, what I buy is up to me, but w/a move out of London (hoping for a good room, and cleaner power, fingers crossed) pending, it's logistically a bad time to discuss a whole new medium.
She's an 80's pop kind of girl, and that's about it - I'm afraid tape just won't provide any material I can wow her with. Yarlung's "Smoke And Mirrors" tape due is right up my street, but it will send her screaming out of the house to walk the dogs she's planning to get!
No, changes to my main gear she's pretty understanding on, but I'm getting the dreaded raised eyebrow atm.
She's looking at me w/a combination of suspicion and barely supressed mirth when I say R2R runs deep in my DNA, from my dad spilling reels on a Phillips in 1969 when I was 5 (yes, I remember it "well"), to countless visual cues in studios and films (if you want to avoid the tape bug, never watch F. F. Coppola's "The Conversation"), and the deep connection that 95% of my fave music was on a tape before it made it to my vinyl.
This isn't the critical factor, although it doesn't help. No, it just feels like a bit of a jump into the unknown, esp what happens when the stuff is sitting in my room, and plans/dreams have morphed into reality/nightmares LOL.
I would like to consider cheaper, entry options, but so many here (like pretty much everyone by PM) warn me off this.
The J-Corder stuff starts at $4500, but Christian is not a fan of the stock electronics (?tape head amp?), even though they claim they provide some sort of upgrade to the amp electronics as well as the top to toe refurb, and it's plug and play.
Can anyone here confirm if the refurb work done by J Corder, and upgraded electronics, make buying an item from them a good option to dip my toe in the tape waters, or is it as many say, that even more than tt, the deck must be of the best or pushing best quality, otherwise the potential of tape will stay just that, potential.
If the refurbed base model from J Corder is up to snuff to allow tapes to shine (and I wouldn't expect it to be top drawer like the Studers, then again my tt and cdp are not the very best either although they punch WELL above their weight), esp w/upgraded electronics offered at the price, is this REALLY a feasible way to go? This would set me back £3k-£4k, and my GF is kind of ok w/that.
Get it set up and i can always suprise her at a later date (anyone have DuranDuran "Wild Boys" or "The Reflex" on tape?)
I just cannot shut my eyes and throw money at this in the first instance.
If the J Corder as a one box solution let's me into this party, then I'm looking at eg a BottleHead ?tube head amp? (is that the right term?) next, if we're talking about an upgrade commensurate w/the cost of this deck?
And is this a simple retrofit, again kind of plug and play?
So please, I may look like I'm trying to find any reason not to join the party, but I'm getting more conflicting advice on this esp choice of decks, and philisophical opinions on participation or not, then on any other area of audio. And that's allied to the schizo yo yoing I'm prone to anyway.
My extra .02.
You already have a top vinyl analog system in a very much tweaked system - IMHO only an excellent R2R machine with an outboard amplifier or an heavily tweaked machine will have the opportunity to challenge your system. Since you live in EC, I would advise you to consider a machine sourced and serviced in EC, otherwise customs and shipping can become a nightmare in the future. I know that there are several italian and geman companies specializing in the maintenance of professional R2R machines, such as http://www.analogplanet.it/en/#, but I have no direct experience with them.
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Micro, I need to really clarify this.
I am very happy w/my front end, tt and cdp. They both punch well above their weight. There's no doubt I could plough a typical UHA or Studer/dozen tapes budget STRAIGHT into a eg GP Monaco tt, and get a step up in my 2k strong vinyl collection, ore even a GG and refresh my 1k cd's and access dsd, x2, x4. Or I could plough the equivalent cash into acquiring a comprehensive classical and jazz vinyl collection, s/h, amounting to 2000-3000 lps.
You see the dilemmas. Otoh, I get a fascinating new experience on a select number of tapes to take my breath away, and there is a chance this joy really justifies the steep entry ticket. Or I stick as is re gear, and just swell my horizons w/new music in a major major way.
The q now as my thread has evolved is whether it is just plain wrong to go for an entry level but quality tape option (not considering Ebay purchases). J Corder comes highly recommended by Steve Hoffman, Charles of Stellavox is a fan of the model, and a knowledgeable tape enthusiast has PMd me to say it's a reasonable way to go. For $5k the decks are full refurbed, and new amp electronics are fitted.
At a later date, $5k gets me a BottleHead amp upgrade.
In a nutshell, we all started w/basic tts and cdps, noone ever said we had to go to a Walker or an Esoteric on day one. But does one really have to go to a UHA or Studer on day one?
Does the inherent nature of tape mean because it's SO good, SO superior, it DEMANDS the best playback gear, otherwise TOO much performance is lost?
I would love to hope that one could do the usual upgrade path w/tape like every other format, but something tells me it's very superiority means it is most prone to underperforming w/anything other than the very best. That would lead to a worst case scenario, I spend stupid amounts of money on tape which could easily sound worse than vinyl.
If this is true, the adventure is over for me before I get on the train.
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Was at the Windsor Hi Fi Show near London today, and attended a little seminar from the founder of Zen Sati records, who records music direct to vinyl, live in real time w/no overdubs or edits.
Listened on a TW Acustic tt, new Tron SS amps and DeVore spkrs. Sound was just great.
I got talking about R2R as he works a lot w/tape, and runs Studer a820's himself as well as a Nagra Digital deck.
He concurred that Studer, Nagra or Atr were the best ways to go, but gave a strong thumbs up to my idea of a Technics RS1500 tricked out w/a King Cello amp that may be offered to me.
This is the way I'm going to go, if I go at all.
Listened on a TW Acustic tt, new Tron SS amps and DeVore spkrs. Sound was just great.
I got talking about R2R as he works a lot w/tape, and runs Studer a820's himself as well as a Nagra Digital deck.
He concurred that Studer, Nagra or Atr were the best ways to go, but gave a strong thumbs up to my idea of a Technics RS1500 tricked out w/a King Cello amp that may be offered to me.
This is the way I'm going to go, if I go at all.
I believe you are referring to Mike? He is the distributor of Zensati, his record company has another name. He does this demo with a giant TT with a large clamp (don't remember if it was TW), Nagra stuff. Also has the mooks. I bought one of his CDs last year.
DON'T GO. Don't drive yourself insane with sily audiophilitis, when you simply can enjoy the music and keep your GF happy. Buy a thousand records/CDs instead. Do you really want to jeopardize your psychological and relational well-being with some audiophile pipe dream?
Look, if you were already sold on the idea and were sure, fine. But you are not, and you are not sure, and there are downsides for your personal situation that might not be there for others, so I am trying to save you from yourself.
DON'T DO IT.
If others think, tape is for them, great. It's obviously not for you. Period.
Yes, nothing wrong with that. A hobby is a hobby. And if you can afford it not just financially but also with regard to your personal situation, fine. But this is obviously not the case here.
As I said, for some tape may be great. It's just not for Marc. Period.
End of story.
Yes, Mike Valentine. had an in depth chat re tape. Put me right on a few things esp his approval of a sorted Technics RS1500 w/King Cello amp.
Highlight of the show was his demo of direct to 33/45rpm recordings.
Surprise of the show was a pair of £299/$500 Elac Debut B6 bookshelf speakers. I have never been so impressed w/a pair of speakers before. These were not just giant killers, but slayers of the highest order.
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