High-Performance Stereo With Stock Power Cords?

[microstrip]

Question: Is it possible to have a high-performance stereo with stock power cords?

Yes. High performance stereo pre-dated the use of alternative power cords.

A stereo that is highly dynamic with controlled low frequencies, extended high frequencies, and a massive layered holographic sound stage that changes scale with recordings from immediate with focused presence, to wraparound envelopment and all points in between with stock power cords?

Yes again. Nice try to describe audiophile paradise, but you still missed a a lot of superlatives.

I mean, obviously, the answer is no, absolutely not. But I’m curious, what other people think?

That this is simply poor taste, aggressive marketing speech ... You are not unique, people reading audio magazines often read similar things.
IMO this is not the adequate style for this particular forum, but perhaps I am wrong and you are right. Times change ...

Bonus question: do power cord deniers have actual high-performance stereos?

A last trick - making an artificial black and white division between people with different opinions. It is not a question of being denier or being not denier. It is a question of deciding how to enjoy this hobby and individual preferences and choices. And , I know you did not want to be insulting, but you iPhone is trained to change your style to being aggressive.

Disclaimer - I own expensive power cables, signal cables and tweaks.

 

[Lagonda]

OK, more or less the sonic attributes I expected you to write. I heard similar things from the audio file power cords I tried with the exception of a more natural sounding mid range that reminded me more of the instruments and voices I hear when listening to live on amplified. One of the things I noticed with fancy cords is that aspects of the sound were enhanced as you describe, and they were heard consistently regardless of recording. The fancy cords made my music collection sound more and more similar and I found myself focusing on the sound rather than the music.

I agree with you that chords and wires are extremely important and should be very carefully selected by the listener. However, I disagree that everyone is gonna have the same values and criteria, and be looking for the same things. I want my system to disappear and not draw attention to itself. I want to relax and enjoy listening to the music. I suppose everyone wants that, but I don’t think everyone agrees on how to get there.

Could you explain what you mean by “within the sound field” and “superior sound staging“?

The ideal situation would be using the power cords that equipment makers were using when voicing their equipment, a few manufacturers made their amps with attached cords, not a bad idea in my view. Some high end cords will enhance certain frequencies, others will dull them. After many years with high end cords, i have personally come to the conclusion that i prefer neutral copper cables in my system. Some systems might only work with cables that enhance certain frequencies especially if you voice your system in that direction, a highly treated room with a lot of absorbers will often favor a cable with extra sizzle in the treble. Many tube amps need silver cables to sound balanced . Depending on the flexibility of your speakers and room, you might need special cables to make your system sound right, ideally you try as many as you can lay your hands on.

 

[ssfas]

Bingo

I bought Supra LoRad 1.5 for a pair of Quad ESL63 and they sounded fantastic. They are excellent, have a white cover and cheap. I only sold the speakers because my wife decided they were invading her house.

This is what the ESL63 manual says about speaker cables, complete with snake oil warning. The common choices are QED79 pr Atlas Hyper 2.0, which will cost about $100 for a 2m pair.

If only more manufacturers specified the preferred electrical measurements, for power cables it's usually the ability to conduct electricity.

 

[chuck]

Honestly, being happy with what we have, is the hallmark of a good life. A healthy mindset.

I like condescension, too. My amp is a Boulder 3060 and no one, not even SR, makes a power cord for it unless I want to pay up front for a custom cord, no refunds if it is lame, designed for itty bitty little amps. So it better sound good with the stock power cord and it does, way better than those little tube amps that need all the help they can get. So much fun.

 

[Ted Denney III]

I like condescension, too. My amp is a Boulder 3060 and no one, not even SR, makes a power cord for it unless I want to pay up front for a custom cord, no refunds if it is lame, designed for itty bitty little amps. So it better sound good with the stock power cord and it does, way better than those little tube amps that need all the help they can get. So much fun.

Actually, if you are interested, will make you one and if you don’t like it, you don’t have to keep it. We make bespoke cables for people all the time.

 

[dbeau]

The answer is no, also in my system. I was for the longest time a power cord denier, but then a technical post on WBF by Billinge (#112 in the link):

Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls

Try making a cable out of Romex... seriously, have fun. I have seen it done. They’re extremely hard to move, and because of that they will come loose from the plugs (internally). But also you aren’t as likely to maintain the relationship with the ground in the middle as cleanly. What really...

www.whatsbestforum.com

(and follow-up posts by the same poster on subsequent thread pages),

combined with listening experiences in a friend's system finally made me curious to try audiophile power cords again.

I was shocked by how much fine resolution (e.g., on orchestral massed violins), bass control and lack of artificial hardness I had left on the table all those years with my stubborn refusal to consider audiophile power cords and instead using stock power cords. The amount of distortion that went away with better power cords was very substantial.

My power cords are all ZenWave (DaveC), see my signature. The switch to these power cords, as well as to an audiophile Furutech 6-way power distributor (that one removed lots of hardness and distortion as well), was worth every penny.

+1 Formerly being of the PCs not that important clan, my PCs are not stock but the most expensive being $700 and that because my OLADRA came without a cable and I learned that this was the PC used in NZ by Antipodes. Forward to now; I will soon receive Westminster amps/preamp to audition but was sent PCs also as it was their wish that the gear have the 'best' support. Wires arrived early and of course were put in place of those on my DAC and preamp. S***T, there is an audible improvement which I can not avoid upgrading PCs on at least 4 pieces. Price is not a measure of performance but I'm going to have to spend more now

 

[PeterA]

Question: Is it possible to have a high-performance stereo with stock power cords?

Yes.

A stereo that is highly dynamic with controlled low frequencies, extended high frequencies, and a massive layered holographic sound stage that changes scale with recordings from immediate with focused presence, to wraparound envelopment and all points in between with stock power cords?

Yes.

I mean, obviously, the answer is no, absolutely not. But I’m curious, what other people think?

You mean that you think the answer is obviously no, absolutely not. This is to be expected because you are here trying to sell you products, so of course you would have this position. It does not seem that you are really interested in what other people think.

Bonus question: do power cord deniers have actual high-performance stereos?

What do you mean by power cord deniers? Most pieces of audio gear require a power cord to connect the component to the electrical outlet. I do not think anyone denies that, so IMO the premise of your question is faulty and the question can not be answered.

Are you really asking if people think power cords make a difference or sound different from each other? Why do you not just ask that question? Of course different cords can sound different from each other, but even that is not what is important. The important thing is finding the one that the listener wants and that sounds best to him in his system.

 

[DaveC]

I like condescension, too. My amp is a Boulder 3060 and no one, not even SR, makes a power cord for it unless I want to pay up front for a custom cord, no refunds if it is lame, designed for itty bitty little amps. So it better sound good with the stock power cord and it does, way better than those little tube amps that need all the help they can get. So much fun.

Don't want to share too much now, but there's certainly ways to limit the effects of power cables, and seems like Boulder may have implemented something that achieves this. I have a device that greatly limits the effect a power cable has on the sound of any component and have considered marketing them to manufacturers.

It's a lot like speaker manufacturers who go through extraordinary lengths to make well-damped cabinets, but then provide no effective interface in between the speaker cabinet and the floor, so the inert cabinet transfers energy to the floor, negating a lot of the effort the manufacturer went to make an inert cabinet in the first place.

Component manufacturers go through (at least sometimes) extraordinary lengths to make a power supply then fail to address the quality of the incoming AC power.

Boulder Amplifier is within walking distance of my place and I've been to a couple open houses put on by the local audio club, they do everything to the extreme, even milling remotes out of billet aluminum and hand polishing the buttons. It's pretty impressive. I am not surprised that at least some of their products do not show differences in sound between power cables.

So power cables mostly make a difference but how much depends on the component. Unfortunately few component manufacturers are willing or able to implement a power supply where the power cable doesn't have a significant effect on the sound, even at cost-no-object levels.

 

[PeterA]

Let’s cut through the nonsense. Your response is a perfect example of everything wrong with audio “debates” these days.

First you completely missed the point of my question, choosing instead to nitpick semantics.

Your accusation about me selling products is baseless and irrelevant. It’s a cheap shot that adds nothing to the discussion

Obviously “Power cord deniers” was clearly tongue-in-cheek. The fact that you took it literally and went off on a tangent about it is frankly ridiculous. While your long-winded explanation about power cords existing versus sounding different is exactly the kind of pedantic, overcomplicated response I was poking fun at.

If you can’t engage in a straightforward discussion about audio without resorting to pretentious word games and baseless accusations, why bother responding at all?

Next time, try addressing the actual question instead of constructing elaborate straw men. It might lead to a more productive conversation.

I answered your first two questions with a simple, yes.

Perhaps you want to rephrase your bonus question since the premise is tongue in cheek by your own admission.

I have heard high-performance stereos with non-fancy cords. As I said earlier, cords and wires can make a tremendous difference and I think they should be chosen very carefully. They just don’t need to be fancy audiophile grade or expensive.

 

[Ted Denney III]

Perhaps you want to rephrase your bonus question since the premise is tongue in cheek by your own admission.

Well, that's what the emoji was for. Also, I'm glad you acknowledge power cords make a difference, even if you apply an arbitrary cap on their performance beyond which no level of expensive materials or complex geometries can possibly elevate performance.

 

[PeterA]

Well, that's what the emoji was for. Also, I'm glad you acknowledge power cords make a difference, even if you apply an arbitrary cap on their performance beyond which no level of expensive materials or complex geometries can possibly elevate performance.

I’ve always acknowledged that chords and wires make a difference. I never mentioned an arbitrary cap on performance, but now that you mention it, the cap is when they enable the system to sound like live music.

It goes back to the criteria one uses to pass judgment. What is the target and what are the results?

 

[Holmz]

…
Bonus question: do power cord deniers have actual high-performance stereos?

^Some might^


Maybe you can explain how the powercords make a difference?

Even better would be to show the rail voltage, and how it jiggles around versus time as the demands of the music ripple through the power supply.
It seems like if the rails are held at a constant DC voltage, then there is nothing more to see,

I could envision perhaps some noise on the neutral.
Or some rippling out of the load that the power supply is demanding through the live side.

But that might be better addressed with the breaker to the outlet being upgraded.


Then what do we do with manufacturers that say, “Don’t waste you money”, and similar things like “<our> design puts a huge emphasis on the power supply and cord and power conditioners will not make any difference.”
Do I weight your words above theirs?

 

[tima]

I agree with you that chords and wires are extremely important and should be very carefully selected by the listener. However, I disagree that everyone is gonna have the same values and criteria, and be looking for the same things. I want my system to disappear and not draw attention to itself. I want to relax and enjoy listening to the music. I suppose everyone wants that, but I don’t think everyone agrees on how to get there.

Yes -- I agree with this view. My current thinking finds each audiophile power cord and interconnect to cause a system to sound different. Vendors differentiate their wire products by sonic result and often by cable construction. Certain wires suit certain components better or worse as determined by the listener.

One's sonic values ideally reflect their choice of components and vice versa. My values are grounded on the sound I experience from live acoustic music and that serves as my reference for selecting components.

The OP's account presumably describes what he finds as desirable sound:

A stereo that is highly dynamic with controlled low frequencies, extended high frequencies, and a massive layered holographic sound stage that changes scale with recordings from immediate with focused presence, to wraparound envelopment and all points in between

I am not interested in mapping a set of audiophile attributes onto my stereo by using wire to achieve a certain effect. I enjoy music for what it is rather than for stereo effect. For me it starts with a good recording and choosing components that can deliver it in a way that comports with what I hear from live acoustic music. The best wire for me is wire that is hippocratic.

 

[Al M.]

Then what do we do with manufacturers that say, “Don’t waste you money”, and similar things like “<our> design puts a huge emphasis on the power supply and cord and power conditioners will not make any difference.”
Do I weight your words above theirs?

In the past I did weight equipment manufacturers' claims like these higher than those of some audiophile power cord manufacturers.

That was a mistake. I regret it.

As I described earlier in the thread (post #7), audiophile power cords have made a huge difference in my system -- including on the power amp, which according to its excellent designer was quite indifferent to AC quality.

My ZenWave power cords have brought my system reproduction considerably closer to the sound of (unamplified) live music, no question.

 

[Ted Denney III]

I never mentioned an arbitrary cap on performance, but now that you mention it, the cap is when they enable the system to sound like live music.

also you…

As I said earlier, cords and wires can make a tremendous difference and I think they should be chosen very carefully. They just don’t need to be fancy audiophile grade or expensive.

Except when “audiophile grade or expensive” significantly outperforms non-audiophile grade and cheap power cords while “enabling the system to sound [more] like live music”. Or is this about an arbitrary monetary threshold beyond which we stop listening? What’s your point? If something sounds better, it is better. If audiophile grade PC’s are worth the extra money, that’s a personal value proposition. No?

 

[PeterA]

also you…

Except when “audiophile grade or expensive” significantly outperforms non-audiophile grade and cheap power cords while “enabling the system to sound like live music”. Or is this about an arbitrary monetary threshold beyond which we stop listening? What’s your point? If something sounds better, it is better. If audiophile grade PC’s are worth the extra money, that’s a personal value proposition. No?

People can buy whatever they want and you can try to sell whatever you want. My point is I have not heard fancy audio file cords that sound better to me in my system than the cords I have.

You and others claim that fancy audio file grade chords are better than cheap cords. That is fine. The ones that I have heard tend to make everything sound the same by spotlighting sonic attributes. I agree with Tim. First they should do no harm.

You claimed that you were curious what other hobbyists think about this topic. Why do you keep arguing with their opinions?

 

[Holmz]

also you…

Except when “audiophile grade or expensive” significantly outperforms non-audiophile grade and cheap power cords while “enabling the system to sound [more] like live music”. Or is this about an arbitrary monetary threshold beyond which we stop listening? What’s your point? If something sounds better, it is better. If audiophile grade PC’s are worth the extra money, that’s a personal value proposition. No?

OK then - how do they outperform the other cords in measurable attributes?

 

[Ted Denney III]

I have not heard fancy audio file cords that sound better to me in my system than the cords I have.

Not arguing with you, I’m seeking clarification. Your above statement places your perspective in perspective. As I said to someone else earlier, early in the thread, being happy with what one has is a good thing.

 

[Ted Denney III]

OK then - how do they outperform the other cords in measurable attributes?

The same way I presume you measure whether or not you like the way your stereo sounds. Also, do you like the way your stereo sounds? If so, how do you measure that?

 

[ssfas]

One's sonic values ideally reflect their choice of components and vice versa. My values are grounded on the sound I experience from live acoustic music and that serves as my reference for selecting components.

I’m the same as all we can do is hope that the sound produced from recorded music comes close enough to how we remember real instruments live and unamplified.

The problem is the high-end audio industry ruse to lead the customer to believe that everything is important, providing endless avenues to squeeze money out of them. All of us, Ted III included, have a lifestyle to support. There are no better examples than cables and fuses. In some geographic markets it works better than others, because consumers are conditioned differently around the world.

Someone who sells cables and fuses wants you to be believe, not only that they make a difference, but that they make the MOST difference. More than a megabucks component. Especially when 8 out of 10 cats prefer SR catfood over other brands. (Do you have that marketing pitch in the USA?)

Here in the UK power cables and fuses have to meet minimum legal performance requirements, and for me that is enough. I've tried a few high-end versions and rejected them.

The issue to me is more that incoming power can vary, in the UK the voltage is 240v ± 10%, and the frequency can vary ± about 2Hz. Manufacturers know this and work with these tolerances. Some have developed switch mode power supplies that can be plugged in anywhere in the world, totally indifferent to the power quality (voltage, frequency, impedance). Some tube amplifiers need very stable voltage (I used a regenerator), and AC turntable motors need very stable frequency (I use an AC generator with variable voltage and low current).

At least this thread illustrates some people can resist fearmongering the drives a lot of accessory sales.