High-Performance Stereo With Stock Power Cords?

[Al M.]

Not while i walk this earth

That's what I said too until 5 years or so ago. Glad that I changed my mind!

 

[DaveC]

Not while i walk this earth

I don't think I have any products that are expensive enough for you anyways.

 

[Al M.]

I think it's key to understand this, and I think Peter and some others are in this camp. They want their system to come as close as possible to their experience of live music. The other possibility is the owner wants the system to reproduce exactly what's on the recording.

For the former, this is a subjective goal that may or may not overlap with the latter. In an ideal world with an ideal recording there would be no difference to the two approaches, but in an imperfect world with subjective experiences that doesn't work. Consider the typical audio show experience where two people come out of the same room listening to the same demo and have MUCH different takes on what they just experienced. This is more common than two people having the same takes. Also consider the massive differences in speaker design, this comes from differing subjective preferences and thus differing design priorities.

Personally, I want to hear exactly what's on the recording, so my preferences tend to line up with what's objectively best assuming that actually correlates with what satisfies psychoacoustic requirements for the suspension of disbelief. I've designed my own speakers, amplification and cables, and I can say that in a vast majority of cases an objective improvement in my gear leads to what I consider an improvement. But if I was simply trying to come as close as possible to my own experience of live acoustic music I may have to deviate from objective standards in order to achieve my goals.

So on one hand, and for my own preferences, I want an objectively good power cable: It should have quality connectors made using the best materials, so pure copper or silver, with a robust plating that prevents corrosion. I want the best materials, so conductors with high purity and conductivity, the best being UPOCC silver at 105%+ IACS, and the best insulation. I want geometry that results in the best electrical characteristics in terms of LCR, noise rejection, etc. etc... for me, any time I improve these things it results in a better power cable. OTOH, throw that all out the window if that doesn't result in a sound that reminds you of live music if that's your goal.

Why do I prioritize High Fidelity in the traditional sense? Because it conveys the intent of the recording best. If that means live music, then a high fidelity system will sound MORE live. But that's just one kind of recording, the simple 2-mic live recording. There's tons of other kinds of recordings, live with many mics, maybe even some close-mic'ed instruments so you can hear the details in the timbre. Maybe a studio recording that is miles away from live and has zero intention of sounding live. Electronica, rock, etc. that have no real basis in acoustic instrumentation, etc, etc.

In my own testing, I've concluded that most people's preferences lean towards a system that is capable of reproducing the sound of the recording venue and can do the 3-D immersive soundstage and make it sound like "you are there". It takes an objectively good system to do this, and it can all fall apart if only ONE little part of the system isn't up for it. It could be the room, it could be the source, it could be one basic copper interconnect cable that smooths out all the fine detail required for convincing spatial performance.

There are no wrong answers as to preference. Sometimes we don't understand what it takes to achieve our goals, but I think it's important to understand not all goals are the same and my own approach may work for my goals but not others. If a $5 power cable achieves your goals maybe you're just lucky. For me, it will significantly detract from my own goals. So YMMV, this is after all a hobby based on personal preference and not everyone is looking for the same things.

Dave, I don't think your goal of objectively good components is in disagreement with the subjective goal of coming close to the experience of live music.

As is known by now (see also my signature), all my power cords are from your own ZenWave Audio, and so are all my analog signal cables (interconnects, speaker cables). Your cables have served me well in achieving my subjective goal of an experience that is reminiscent of live music to an extent that makes reproduction more or less believable (at least as I personally experience it).

As for a goal that you mention, a system capable of reproducing the sound of the recording venue and conveying a 3-D immersive soundstage, I may indeed have achieved success involving your cables. An audio designer who visited last summer was very impressed with the spatiality of reproduction, which in his experience you rarely hear to such an extent from digital. That indeed depends on proper reproduction of low-level fine detail (and a room that cooperates).

In the near future spatiality and other features will become even better with a just ordered 10 MHz clock for my digital (Mutec REF 10 SE120).

 

[treitz3]

In the near future spatiality and other features will become even better with a just ordered 10 MHz clock for my digital (Mutec REF 10 SE120).

With apologies to the members of the WBF for this off topic post -

Congratulations @Al M. on the Mutec SE120! You are gonna be surprised! Mine ended up being a fantastic upgrade. This, coming from an AfterDark Emperor Signature ClayX Giesemann OCXO 10MHz Reference, 75ohm clock.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. My apologies for the interruption.

Tom

 

[microstrip]

For me, power cables, plugs and fuses need to be legal, because that defines them as fit for purpose. That's the important factor.

We should remember that legal aspects address mainly safety, not performance or repair bills!

The same applies to ethernet cables. They have a standard for signal propagation and it can be tested. That's why I use Belden Blue Jeans, cost about $10, because they are individually tested and made by reliable machine processes.

Now you are addressing standards, a different aspect.

I bought these 13A fuses a few days ago. The law here requires fused plugs, usually 3A, 10A or 13A. Whatever, the rating, they must be certified ceramic silica filled to exacting standards.
The product specification is here:

https://www.gtlsem.com/file.php?_file=product/24/pdf/556bbc10b8aa1.pdf

The certification is on the company website, a Chinese company that has been making UK certified products for over 30 years.
View attachment 145664

As stated, the power loss is no more than 1w at the rated current. For a 13A fuse, that's a power loss of no more than 0.03% (1/(250 x 13)).

This box of fuses cost £2.15, so about $0.30 each.

Again this is general standard for for protection of devices such as household appliances and general electrical circuits - they mainly want to protect your mains system, not the equipment. The limited BS 1362:1973 is not relevant to audio - most countries even do not ask for such protection.

For example, the plate fuses recommended for my amplifiers are rated at 600Vac with a max break current of 100 KA, exceeding by far the BS 1362:1973.

The proper time specifications are a must for audio equipment fuses - and tweak fuses usually do not list them.

Meanwhile, there are people here selling 13A audiophile fuses for $10,000 that appear to be uncertified fakes. I sent evidence to the supplier, I was a customer of theirs, and they did not respond.

Can you give us more details?

I've never seen any science even suggesting how a fuse can be improved. SR's website is just a load of marketing spin and the only thing they do refer to, "Inductive Quantum Coupling", is irrelevant because fuses are a bit of straight wire, not an inductor.

An ideal fuse would have zero resistance - but such fuse would not break!
Some fanatic audiophiles bypass them. Who knows? I am not interested in risking my equipment - in audio fuses protect our investment in case of a component malfunction. Yes, "Inductive Quantum Coupling" is ridiculous, unless we are saying we prefer a fuse designed using string theory because it is more musical.

 

[wil]

We should remember that legal aspects address mainly safety, not performance or repair bills!



Now you are addressing standards, a different aspect.



Again this is general standard for for protection of devices such as household appliances and general electrical circuits - they mainly want to protect your mains system, not the equipment. The limited BS 1362:1973 is not relevant to audio - most countries even do not ask for such protection.

For example, the plate fuses recommended for my amplifiers are rated at 600Vac with a max break current of 100 KA, exceeding by far the BS 1362:1973.

The proper time specifications are a must for audio equipment fuses - and tweak fuses usually do not list them.



Can you give us more details?



An ideal fuse would have zero resistance - but such fuse would not break!
Some fanatic audiophiles bypass them. Who knows? I am not interested in risking my equipment - in audio fuses protect our investment in case of a component malfunction. Yes, "Inductive Quantum Coupling" is ridiculous, unless we are saying we prefer a fuse designed using string theory because it is more musical.

Any thoughts regarding the Swiss Digital Fuse Box?

 

[microstrip]

Any thoughts regarding the Swiss Digital Fuse Box?

No experience with it. You have to look at the current and break time characteristics of the box and decide if you want to assume such risks.

Remember that if we have a big problem under warranty the manufacturer will be probably be able to know if the proper fuse was inserted ...

 

[andromedaaudio]

Any thoughts regarding the Swiss Digital Fuse Box?

Why always swiss ??
I do have experience with belgian and dutch fuseboxes in a home environment
In my car / Motorcycle i have german ones

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Any thoughts regarding the Swiss Digital Fuse Box?

Have 3 of them in my system. Massive upgrade over fuses...there are several threads on it, so we do not derail this one.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

No experience with it. You have to look at the current and break time characteristics of the box and decide if you want to assume such risks.

Remember that if we have a big problem under warranty the manufacturer will be probably be able to know if the proper fuse was inserted ...

No risk have you even reached out to the manufacturer. Bet that purple fuse is not proper.

 

[ssfas]

We should remember that legal aspects address mainly safety, not performance or repair bills!



Now you are addressing standards, a different aspect.



Again this is general standard for for protection of devices such as household appliances and general electrical circuits - they mainly want to protect your mains system, not the equipment. The limited BS 1362:1973 is not relevant to audio - most countries even do not ask for such protection.

For example, the plate fuses recommended for my amplifiers are rated at 600Vac with a max break current of 100 KA, exceeding by far the BS 1362:1973.

The proper time specifications are a must for audio equipment fuses - and tweak fuses usually do not list them.



Can you give us more details?



An ideal fuse would have zero resistance - but such fuse would not break!
Some fanatic audiophiles bypass them. Who knows? I am not interested in risking my equipment - in audio fuses protect our investment in case of a component malfunction. Yes, "Inductive Quantum Coupling" is ridiculous, unless we are saying we prefer a fuse designed using string theory because it is more musical.

In the UK, domestic electrical systems have a series of safety devices. I have a compliant installation and there are two 100 amp fuses either side of the meter, a manual shut off inside the house before the consumer units, a 16 amp breaker on the hi-fi feed in the consumer unit and then regulation 13 amp fuses in each plug socket attached to each component. I don’t think there is a single company that manufacturers 13 amp safety fuses, it’s far too expensive to get the certification, and the ones that are sold are rebranded certified fuses made by people like Bussmann.

The only fuses in my system that could be replaced by audiophile fuses are two 2 amp fuses in my streamer and DAC. I did replace one of them with an audiophile version and put the original one back because it made no difference.

My amplifier uses an 8AT fuse. This is a very specific fast blowing fuse. Gryphon make it pretty clear that if you need to replace it, get back to them and don’t use dodgy audiophile fuses.

 

[ssfas]

I think it's key to understand this, and I think Peter and some others are in this camp. They want their system to come as close as possible to their experience of live music. The other possibility is the owner wants the system to reproduce exactly what's on the recording.

For the former, this is a subjective goal that may or may not overlap with the latter. In an ideal world with an ideal recording there would be no difference to the two approaches, but in an imperfect world with subjective experiences that doesn't work. Consider the typical audio show experience where two people come out of the same room listening to the same demo and have MUCH different takes on what they just experienced. This is more common than two people having the same takes. Also consider the massive differences in speaker design, this comes from differing subjective preferences and thus differing design priorities.

Personally, I want to hear exactly what's on the recording, so my preferences tend to line up with what's objectively best assuming that actually correlates with what satisfies psychoacoustic requirements for the suspension of disbelief. I've designed my own speakers, amplification and cables, and I can say that in a vast majority of cases an objective improvement in my gear leads to what I consider an improvement. But if I was simply trying to come as close as possible to my own experience of live acoustic music I may have to deviate from objective standards in order to achieve my goals.

So on one hand, and for my own preferences, I want an objectively good power cable: It should have quality connectors made using the best materials, so pure copper or silver, with a robust plating that prevents corrosion. I want the best materials, so conductors with high purity and conductivity, the best being UPOCC silver at 105%+ IACS, and the best insulation. I want geometry that results in the best electrical characteristics in terms of LCR, noise rejection, etc. etc... for me, any time I improve these things it results in a better power cable. OTOH, throw that all out the window if that doesn't result in a sound that reminds you of live music if that's your goal.

Why do I prioritize High Fidelity in the traditional sense? Because it conveys the intent of the recording best. If that means live music, then a high fidelity system will sound MORE live. But that's just one kind of recording, the simple 2-mic live recording. There's tons of other kinds of recordings, live with many mics, maybe even some close-mic'ed instruments so you can hear the details in the timbre. Maybe a studio recording that is miles away from live and has zero intention of sounding live. Electronica, rock, etc. that have no real basis in acoustic instrumentation, etc, etc.

In my own testing, I've concluded that most people's preferences lean towards a system that is capable of reproducing the sound of the recording venue and can do the 3-D immersive soundstage and make it sound like "you are there". It takes an objectively good system to do this, and it can all fall apart if only ONE little part of the system isn't up for it. It could be the room, it could be the source, it could be one basic copper interconnect cable that smooths out all the fine detail required for convincing spatial performance.

There are no wrong answers as to preference. Sometimes we don't understand what it takes to achieve our goals, but I think it's important to understand not all goals are the same and my own approach may work for my goals but not others. If a $5 power cable achieves your goals maybe you're just lucky. For me, it will significantly detract from my own goals. So YMMV, this is after all a hobby based on personal preference and not everyone is looking for the same things.

I recently had an analogue XLR cable pair made up using Neotech NEMOI 1220 that uses silver OCC and multiple layers of insulation. I wonder what the parallel geometry brings to the party. I had the Neotech copper UP-OCC gold plated plugs fitted.

Veils weren’t lifted, but I thought it was worthwhile. Here Neotech have a trade supplier and they charge $40 per cable to do the terminations.

 

[ssfas]

Can you give us more details?

I’d rather not because they sell stuff on this site.

 

[ssfas]

We are publishing 'blow' characteristics for our fuses which are within the low end of industry standards, meaning they blow sooner rather than later while being in spec. As for cable measurements, aside from inductance, capacitance, and resistance, which are meaningless unless you have an amplifier which needs to see a very high (or low) reading on one of the three, such measurements do not correlate to subjective sound quality—things like sound staging, air in the sound field, low-frequency control, or tonal balance.

Question: what are your preferred measurements? What do you look for that tells you one cable will sound better than another? Certainly, you have a set of numbers you use when assessing whether or not you will like the way a cable sounds?

My first concern are the mechanical properties. I’ve used the same Furutech wall socket for about 15 years. I use 3 of the floppy Puritan Ultimate cables because I have a space issue and the previous Shunyata cables were totally unmanageable. Other power cables are made from kits that include certified plugs, a certified fuse and the required length of Supra LoRad 2.5. The cable is rated for 16 A, the insulation is fully compliant with UK regulations.

 

[Rensselaer]

Answer - No. To both. Someone here may possibly disagree. To each their own.

Tom

See number 9. Why are allowing manufacturers to take over this forum?

 

[Holmz]

I’m not selling audio gear with this post.

OK.
Let’s call it sowing seeds then.

Which cable companies supply (you) with the measurements and engineering reasoning that meets your criteria?

My criteria?
I asked you for any reasoning etc. for your stuff… I did not ask you for a “Greco-Roman reversal question” to prove myself.
I’m getting the Denny third degree.

Specifically which company.

Mogami specifies L/C/R for cables, and AQ provides the reasoning for their biasing batteries.
Kimber also supplies L/C/R details on their cables and the reasoning trading L to lower C or visa versa.
MIT had their network job to quell RF oscillations.
And there are also others.

Even zip cord has specs.
Yours?… Zip, nada.

 

[microstrip]

I agree that everything is important, but some items are more important than others. There is generally a hierarchy. I chose amp first then speakers then wires and cords. Others may prioritize, a different hierarchy. Regardless, everything should be chosen carefully.

In an ideal world we would choose all our system at the same time. In fact, most of us seldom start from zero, so there is not usually a problem of priorities. Also many times a secondary reason, such as nice deal or part-exchange values also affect our priorities and choices.

The market is filled with excellent equipment that pleases my preferences.

 

[treitz3]

See number 9. Why are allowing manufacturers to take over this forum?

Good evening to you. Please allow me to direct your question to @Ron Resnick. I will decline to comment any further about this either privately or publicly.

Tom

 

[Ted Denney III]

No risk have you even reached out to the manufacturer. Bet that purple fuse is not proper.

You’re making baseless claims. Our fuses are rated to blow on the safe side of industry standards. We sell over 10,000 fuses annually with a money-back guarantee—that’s $5 million plus worth of fuses every year. Almost no one sends them back, but when they do—even if they specify the wrong value or choose a fast-blow fuse when they needed a slow-blow fuse— or in the off chance they do not complement their system, they get a full refund, no questions asked. If our fuse’s specifications are not right for your system, you get your money back.
To my knowledge, we’re the only audio fuse company that offers a no-risk, 30-day money-back guarantee. That you doubt our fuses? Well, I’d love to see your system—I think I have a very good idea of what it might look like. Have a nice weekend!

 

[Republicoftexas69]

You’re making baseless claims. Our fuses are rated to blow on the safe side of industry standards. We sell over 10,000 fuses annually with a money-back guarantee—that’s $5 million plus worth of fuses every year. Almost no one sends them back, but when they do—even if they specify the wrong value or choose a fast-blow fuse when they needed a slow-blow fuse— or in the off chance they do not complement their system, they get a full refund, no questions asked. If our fuse’s specifications are not right for your system, you get your money back.
To my knowledge, we’re the only audio fuse company that offers a no-risk, 30-day money-back guarantee. That you doubt our fuses? Well, I’d love to see your system—I think I have a very good idea of what it might look like. Have a nice weekend!

Yikes...Did not make a claim, posed the question, you the only one with a purple fuse and I am being serious? "To my knowledge, we’re the only audio fuse company that offers a no-risk, 30-day money-back guarantee." Yes I know I returned a couple and thank you.