High-Performance Stereo With Stock Power Cords?

[Holmz]

The same way I presume you measure whether or not you like the way your stereo sounds.

Noice retort!
However I am not making audio gear and selling it here.

But I can and have measured the noise level and use that to try and reduce noise and hum and make sure that cable routing is optimised. That would fall into the category of “do no harm”.

Obviously some of the things like chair position and speaker placement is largely by ear, I suppose that one can use room mode measurements to help with that to a large extent.
However I am unsure how to measure a cable. And if you and not, then it seems like it is by using some recipe or leaned over a cauldron where you try different things and see if something works. But if that is the case, then how are evolutions of that done? What is it based upon if not something measurable?

Also, do you like the way your stereo sounds? If so, how do you measure that?

Yeah I like it.
I’m in the middle of a bit of an upgrade at the moment so I am down to HT.

Being on a corner of the world I need to look at reviews that have graphs and measurements where they do that sort of stuff. Stereophile is one example.
Then if I see some wild impedance demands from a speaker, for instance, then I know that I need to be concerned with an amplifier to support it.

It appears like you are selling the stuff here, but I cannot hear the cables from here.
And you are providing absolutely no engineering reasoning, or measurements, to help one along.

There are also others that sell this stuff on other corners of the globe with a similar model of “try it and see.”
It support that is all easy for you I suppose if you have all of SoCal within an hour or 3 of you, as they can then maybe try it first?

 

[Al M.]

I’m the same as all we can do is hope that the sound produced from recorded music comes close enough to how we remember real instruments live and unamplified.

The problem is the high-end audio industry ruse to lead the customer to believe that everything is important, providing endless avenues to squeeze money out of them.

Except that everything is in fact important when it comes to the goal you stated.

That is, getting sound produced from recorded music that comes close enough to how we remember real instruments live and unamplified.

 

[PeterA]

Except that everything is in fact important when it comes to the goal you stated.

That is, getting sound produced from recorded music that comes close enough to how we remember real instruments live and unamplified.

I agree that everything is important, but some items are more important than others. There is generally a hierarchy. I chose amp first then speakers then wires and cords. Others may prioritize, a different hierarchy. Regardless, everything should be chosen carefully.

 

[Ted Denney III]

Noice retort!
However I am not making audio gear and selling it here.

But I can and have measured the noise level and use that to try and reduce noise and hum and make sure that cable routing is optimised. That would fall into the category of “do no harm”.

Obviously some of the things like chair position and speaker placement is largely by ear, I suppose that one can use room mode measurements to help with that to a large extent.
However I am unsure how to measure a cable. And if you and not, then it seems like it is by using some recipe or leaned over a cauldron where you try different things and see if something works. But if that is the case, then how are evolutions of that done? What is it based upon if not something measurable?


Yeah I like it.
I’m in the middle of a bit of an upgrade at the moment so I am down to HT.

Being on a corner of the world I need to look at reviews that have graphs and measurements where they do that sort of stuff. Stereophile is one example.
Then if I see some wild impedance demands from a speaker, for instance, then I know that I need to be concerned with an amplifier to support it.

It appears like you are selling the stuff here, but I cannot hear the cables from here.
And you are providing absolutely no engineering reasoning, or measurements, to help one along.

There are also others that sell this stuff on other corners of the globe with a similar model of “try it and see.”
It support that is all easy for you I suppose if you have all of SoCal within an hour or 3 of you, as they can then maybe try it first?

I’m not selling audio gear with this post. Which cable companies supply (you) with the measurements and engineering reasoning that meets your criteria? Specifically which company.

 

[ssfas]

Except that everything is in fact important when it comes to the goal you stated.

That is, getting sound produced from recorded music that comes close enough to how we remember real instruments live and unamplified.

For me, power cables, plugs and fuses need to be legal, because that defines them as fit for purpose. That's the important factor.

The same applies to ethernet cables. They have a standard for signal propagation and it can be tested. That's why I use Belden Blue Jeans, cost about $10, because they are individually tested and made by reliable machine processes.

I bought these 13A fuses a few days ago. The law here requires fused plugs, usually 3A, 10A or 13A. Whatever, the rating, they must be certified ceramic silica filled to exacting standards.
The product specification is here:

https://www.gtlsem.com/file.php?_file=product/24/pdf/556bbc10b8aa1.pdf

The certification is on the company website, a Chinese company that has been making UK certified products for over 30 years.


As stated, the power loss is no more than 1w at the rated current. For a 13A fuse, that's a power loss of no more than 0.03% (1/(250 x 13)).

This box of fuses cost £2.15, so about $0.30 each.

Meanwhile, there are people here selling 13A audiophile fuses for $10,000 that appear to be uncertified fakes. I sent evidence to the supplier, I was a customer of theirs, and they did not respond.

I've never seen any science even suggesting how a fuse can be improved. SR's website is just a load of marketing spin and the only thing they do refer to, "Inductive Quantum Coupling", is irrelevant because fuses are a bit of straight wire, not an inductor.

 

[Ted Denney III]

For me, power cables, plugs and fuses need to be legal, because that defines them as fit for purpose. That's the important factor.

The same applies to ethernet cables. They have a standard for signal propagation and it can be tested. That's why I use Belden Blue Jeans, cost about $10, because they are individually tested and made by reliable machine processes.

I bought these 13A fuses a few days ago. The law here requires fused plugs, usually 3A, 10A or 13A. Whatever, the rating, they must be certified ceramic silica filled to exacting standards.
The product specification is here:

https://www.gtlsem.com/file.php?_file=product/24/pdf/556bbc10b8aa1.pdf

The certification is on the company website, a Chinese company that has been making UK certified products for over 30 years.
View attachment 145664

As stated, the power loss is no more than 1w at the rated current. For a 13A fuse, that's a power loss of no more than 0.03% (1/(250 x 13)).

This box of fuses cost £2.15, so about $0.30 each.

Meanwhile, there are people here selling 13A audiophile fuses for $10,000 that appear to be uncertified fakes. I sent evidence to the supplier, I was a customer of theirs, and they did not respond.

I've never seen any science even suggesting how a fuse can be improved. SR's website is just a load of marketing spin and the only thing they do refer to, "Inductive Quantum Coupling", is irrelevant because fuses are a bit of straight wire, not an inductor.

There is an inductive element to what we do. *electricity* is an EM Wave and a great many thing can and do effect that wave in ways that manifest in the sound of our stereos.

 

[wil]

Yes -- I agree with this view. My current thinking finds each audiophile power cord and interconnect to cause a system to sound different. Vendors differentiate their wire products by sonic result and often by cable construction. Certain wires suit certain components better or worse as determined by the listener.

One's sonic values ideally reflect their choice of components and vice versa. My values are grounded on the sound I experience from live acoustic music and that serves as my reference for selecting components.

The OP's account presumably describes what he finds as desirable sound:



I am not interested in mapping a set of audiophile attributes onto my stereo by using wire to achieve a certain effect. I enjoy music for what it is rather than for stereo effect. For me it starts with a good recording and choosing components that can deliver it in a way that comports with what I hear from live acoustic music. The best wire for me is wire that is hippocratic.

Do you feel Ted’s description of desirable audio attributes is at odds with your concept of live acoustic music?

Does not live acoustic music have “extended high frequencies”? It should and I’d be disappointed if it did not. (and I’m not talking about artificial sounding, or exaggerated highs).

The over arching concept of live acoustic music being the holy grail doesn’t necessarily resonate with me. Live acoustic music can be and is often flawed from my experience. Venue acoustics and seat location have a huge impact and often with negative effects on the musical experience. Maybe I’m addicted to the more close miked sound of recordings. For example, at a recent violin concerto performance, I felt the soloist was swallowed by the orchestra. The balance was off at least from our seats. It was pretty bad.

I think the term “natural sounding” is probably better the “live.” But it’s all just words and open to misinterpretation.

 

[ssfas]

I’m not selling audio gear with this post. Which cable companies supply (you) with the measurements and engineering reasoning that meets your criteria? Specifically which company.

It tends to be the cheaper products where the customers are more rational than emotional.
I have these speaker cables, measurements provided

5T00UP - Speaker & Control | Belden

Audio Cable, 2 Conductor 10 AWG, BC, Unshielded, CL2

catalog.belden.com

QED provide loads of specifications and all their engineering theory:

https://support.qed.co.uk/portal/en/kb/qed

Littelfuse provide all their specifications

https://www.littelfuse.com/assetdocs/littelfuse-fuse-835-series-datasheet?assetguid=ddb12a8f-3fc0-42f7-b465-1a0b10fea8ce

SEM are one example of safety fuses specs

https://www.gtlsem.com/file.php?_file=product/24/pdf/556bbc10b8aa1.pdf

Supra LoRad cable specifications

Supra cables - HDMI cables for 8k, 4k, USB 2.0, 3.0, 3.2, Cat 8, Ethernet, DisplayPort, Digital Video, Audio, Fibre Optic, Quadrax, XL Annorum, LoRad mains power cables, Sword, Excalibur, Analogue, Digital, Speaker cables

Supra cables - HDMI cables for 8k, 4k, USB 2.0, 3.0, 3.2, Cat 8, Ethernet, DisplayPort, Digital Video, Audio, Fibre Optic, Quadrax, XL Annorum, LoRad mains power cables, Sword, Excalibur, Analogue, Digital, Speaker cables

www.supracables.co.uk

Belden 19364 mains cable (use lots of this)

https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/19364_techdata.pdf

I used Townshend speaker cables, measurements here:

Isolda Speaker Cables - www.townshendaudio.com

Q: ” Excessive handling degrades the sound. ” Irreversibly, forever damaged? What would you say is excessive ? A: Copper “work hardens” i.e. if you flex copper back and forth (or beat it with a hammer), it will get physically harder and it will not sound as good when used for audio cables. Work...

www.townshendaudio.com

Popular for their extremely low inductance and noise rejection. After a room move they were too short, bought a brand also very low inductance, data was provided in confidence, not published online.

Years ago I used Sommer cables. They provide detailed measurements on every product.

Bulk Cable Audio

www.sommercable.com

Any SR fuse or cable measurements available?

 

[Ted Denney III]

It tends to be the cheaper products where the customers are more rational than emotional.
I have these speaker cables, measurements provided

5T00UP - Speaker & Control | Belden

Audio Cable, 2 Conductor 10 AWG, BC, Unshielded, CL2

catalog.belden.com

QED provide loads of specifications and all their engineering theory:

https://support.qed.co.uk/portal/en/kb/qed

Littelfuse provide all their specifications

https://www.littelfuse.com/assetdocs/littelfuse-fuse-835-series-datasheet?assetguid=ddb12a8f-3fc0-42f7-b465-1a0b10fea8ce

SEM are one example of safety fuses specs

https://www.gtlsem.com/file.php?_file=product/24/pdf/556bbc10b8aa1.pdf

Supra LoRad cable specifications

Supra cables - HDMI cables for 8k, 4k, USB 2.0, 3.0, 3.2, Cat 8, Ethernet, DisplayPort, Digital Video, Audio, Fibre Optic, Quadrax, XL Annorum, LoRad mains power cables, Sword, Excalibur, Analogue, Digital, Speaker cables

Supra cables - HDMI cables for 8k, 4k, USB 2.0, 3.0, 3.2, Cat 8, Ethernet, DisplayPort, Digital Video, Audio, Fibre Optic, Quadrax, XL Annorum, LoRad mains power cables, Sword, Excalibur, Analogue, Digital, Speaker cables

www.supracables.co.uk

Belden 19364 mains cable (use lots of this)

https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/19364_techdata.pdf

I used Townshend speaker cables, measurements here:

Isolda Speaker Cables - www.townshendaudio.com

Q: ” Excessive handling degrades the sound. ” Irreversibly, forever damaged? What would you say is excessive ? A: Copper “work hardens” i.e. if you flex copper back and forth (or beat it with a hammer), it will get physically harder and it will not sound as good when used for audio cables. Work...

www.townshendaudio.com

Popular for their extremely low inductance and noise rejection. After a room move they were too short, bought a brand also very low inductance, data was provided in confidence, not published online.

Years ago I used Sommer cables. They provide detailed measurements on every product.

Bulk Cable Audio

www.sommercable.com

Any SR fuse or cable measurements available?

We are publishing 'blow' characteristics for our fuses which are within the low end of industry standards, meaning they blow sooner rather than later while being in spec. As for cable measurements, aside from inductance, capacitance, and resistance, which are meaningless unless you have an amplifier which needs to see a very high (or low) reading on one of the three, such measurements do not correlate to subjective sound quality—things like sound staging, air in the sound field, low-frequency control, or tonal balance.

Question: what are your preferred measurements? What do you look for that tells you one cable will sound better than another? Certainly, you have a set of numbers you use when assessing whether or not you will like the way a cable sounds?

 

[Al M.]

The over arching concept of live acoustic music being the holy grail doesn’t necessarily resonate with me. Live acoustic music can be and is often flawed from my experience. Venue acoustics and seat location have a huge impact and often with negative effects on the musical experience. Maybe I’m addicted to the more close miked sound of recordings. For example, at a recent violin concerto performance, I felt the soloist was swallowed by the orchestra. The balance was off at least from our seats. It was pretty bad.

I think the term “natural sounding” is probably better the “live.” But it’s all just words and open to misinterpretation.

I try to find good seats when going to a live concert. Call me a snob, but if I cannot, I'd rather skip the concert and listen to the music at home. I'm not interested in just "being there", I want to have the best experience.

Like you, I've had my disappointments with live concerts. When I talk about live concerts as reference, I am mostly talking about more or less optimal seating.

Last season a friend and I went to see Hilary Hahn playing the Brahms violin concerto with the Boston Symphony. The perspective, sitting in row 10 or so from the stage, was more or less like that of her recording with The Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, in which the violin sounds not very close-miked but still clear. We both loved it.

 

[Motoman]

I think that the answer is "of course." You can get all of the superlatives from equipment with stock power cords. BUT, IMHO, in a high end system, high end power cords make the system even better. Additionally, I have found that high end power cords make more of an audible difference on some equipment more than others. For example, I found that a Shunyata Research Sigma made a "large" (i.e., readily audible improvement) difference over stock with my ARC REF 6, followed by the also- noticeable improvement on my MSB Discrete DAC, followed by an audible improvement to the bass on my PASS 250.8. A better power cord made zero difference on my REL S/510. While I am talking about Shunyata, let me give a "plug" for the Shunyata Everest power conditioner, which, at least in my system, made a transformative difference to the sound of my system! Expensive, especially with a Sigma power cord, but a truly excellent component in my system!

 

[Ron Resnick]

each audiophile power cord and interconnect to cause a system to sound different. Vendors differentiate their wire products by sonic result and often by cable construction. Certain wires suit certain components better or worse as determined by the listener.

+1

 

[microstrip]

I’m the same as all we can do is hope that the sound produced from recorded music comes close enough to how we remember real instruments live and unamplified.

Yes, the Pandora box. Each of us has a different remembrance or "real instruments life and amplified. And you are discarding most audiophiles, who simply want an enjoyable musical experience.

IMO we should separate the method to assemble a system from the objective of stereo sound reproduction.

The problem is the high-end audio industry ruse to lead the customer to believe that everything is important, providing endless avenues to squeeze money out of them. All of us, Ted III included, have a lifestyle to support.

In fact the essence of the high-end hobby is creating individual experiences to achieve musical enjoyment. The high-end focus on personal preferences - creating them is part of it. And surely it is a business.

There are no better examples than cables and fuses. In some geographic markets it works better than others, because consumers are conditioned differently around the world.

Probably, I do not have data on it. But what is the point?

Someone who sells cables and fuses wants you to be believe, not only that they make a difference, but that they make the MOST difference. More than a megabucks component. Especially when 8 out of 10 cats prefer SR catfood over other brands. (Do you have that marketing pitch in the USA?)

Surely.

Here in the UK power cables and fuses have to meet minimum legal performance requirements, and for me that is enough. I've tried a few high-end versions and rejected them.

The problem with fuses is that you must destroy them to get their rate and time technical specification. I only use fuses from the fuse industry leaders, that have a proven past of certification and confidence from manufacturers.

Power cables are a different matter - IMO we should not mix them with fuses.

The issue to me is more that incoming power can vary, in the UK the voltage is 240v ± 10%, and the frequency can vary ± about 2Hz. Manufacturers know this and work with these tolerances.

Surely - but we are mainly addressing reliability issues, not optimum subjective performance.

Some have developed switch mode power supplies that can be plugged in anywhere in the world, totally indifferent to the power quality (voltage, frequency, impedance).

From a technical perspective, not from the subjective one.

Some tube amplifiers need very stable voltage (I used a regenerator), and AC turntable motors need very stable frequency (I use an AC generator with variable voltage and low current).

Yes - it all depends on our own equipment.

At least this thread illustrates some people can resist fearmongering the drives a lot of accessory sales.

IMO its shows we have different ways of achieving our onw preferences. Some like and even need the pseudo-technical/scientific verbiage, others create their own personal "voodoo".

 

[treitz3]

I just use my ears. They never lie.

Tom

 

[ssfas]

I just use my ears. They never lie.

Tom

Your brain interprets what goes in your ears, and your brain is open to persuasion!

 

[Balle Clorin]

The only problem power cables might have is if they are too short. No need to donate massive amounts of money to high end cable manufacturers/rebranders…

I use the this, good enough for my system with Accuphase amp and Revel speakers and Trinnov preamp

Supra LoRad MK II 3×2.5 shielded power cable buy at hifisound.de

Buy Supra LoRad MK II 3×2.5 shielded power cable online at hifisound.de » 17.9 € ✓ Your online hifi specialist retailer for

www.hifisound.de

 

[DaveC]

Yes -- I agree with this view. My current thinking finds each audiophile power cord and interconnect to cause a system to sound different. Vendors differentiate their wire products by sonic result and often by cable construction. Certain wires suit certain components better or worse as determined by the listener.

One's sonic values ideally reflect their choice of components and vice versa. My values are grounded on the sound I experience from live acoustic music and that serves as my reference for selecting components.

I think it's key to understand this, and I think Peter and some others are in this camp. They want their system to come as close as possible to their experience of live music. The other possibility is the owner wants the system to reproduce exactly what's on the recording.

For the former, this is a subjective goal that may or may not overlap with the latter. In an ideal world with an ideal recording there would be no difference to the two approaches, but in an imperfect world with subjective experiences that doesn't work. Consider the typical audio show experience where two people come out of the same room listening to the same demo and have MUCH different takes on what they just experienced. This is more common than two people having the same takes. Also consider the massive differences in speaker design, this comes from differing subjective preferences and thus differing design priorities.

Personally, I want to hear exactly what's on the recording, so my preferences tend to line up with what's objectively best assuming that actually correlates with what satisfies psychoacoustic requirements for the suspension of disbelief. I've designed my own speakers, amplification and cables, and I can say that in a vast majority of cases an objective improvement in my gear leads to what I consider an improvement. But if I was simply trying to come as close as possible to my own experience of live acoustic music I may have to deviate from objective standards in order to achieve my goals.

So on one hand, and for my own preferences, I want an objectively good power cable: It should have quality connectors made using the best materials, so pure copper or silver, with a robust plating that prevents corrosion. I want the best materials, so conductors with high purity and conductivity, the best being UPOCC silver at 105%+ IACS, and the best insulation. I want geometry that results in the best electrical characteristics in terms of LCR, noise rejection, etc. etc... for me, any time I improve these things it results in a better power cable. OTOH, throw that all out the window if that doesn't result in a sound that reminds you of live music if that's your goal.

Why do I prioritize High Fidelity in the traditional sense? Because it conveys the intent of the recording best. If that means live music, then a high fidelity system will sound MORE live. But that's just one kind of recording, the simple 2-mic live recording. There's tons of other kinds of recordings, live with many mics, maybe even some close-mic'ed instruments so you can hear the details in the timbre. Maybe a studio recording that is miles away from live and has zero intention of sounding live. Electronica, rock, etc. that have no real basis in acoustic instrumentation, etc, etc.

In my own testing, I've concluded that most people's preferences lean towards a system that is capable of reproducing the sound of the recording venue and can do the 3-D immersive soundstage and make it sound like "you are there". It takes an objectively good system to do this, and it can all fall apart if only ONE little part of the system isn't up for it. It could be the room, it could be the source, it could be one basic copper interconnect cable that smooths out all the fine detail required for convincing spatial performance.

There are no wrong answers as to preference. Sometimes we don't understand what it takes to achieve our goals, but I think it's important to understand not all goals are the same and my own approach may work for my goals but not others. If a $5 power cable achieves your goals maybe you're just lucky. For me, it will significantly detract from my own goals. So YMMV, this is after all a hobby based on personal preference and not everyone is looking for the same things.

 

[andromedaaudio]

High-Performance Stereo With Stock Power Cords?​

What about " LOW performance stereo with powercords that cost as much as a car "

 

[DaveC]

High-Performance Stereo With Stock Power Cords?​

What about " LOW performance stereo with powercords that cost as much as a car "

You do you. If that makes you happy I'm not going to object. Just let me know when you're ready to spend on that power cord!

 

[andromedaaudio]

ust let me know when you're ready to spend on that power cord!

Not while i walk this earth