Hint of new Magico products

[PeterA]

The Alexandria X2 can be upgraded to the Alexandria X2 Series-2.

That's cool. I didn't know that. I had thought the X2 Series -2 is no longer a current model and I don't think either the X2 or X2.2 can be upgraded to the XLF.

I suppose an original Magico Mini can still be sent to Magico to be upgraded to a Mini II, but the Mini II has long been discontinued.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, that is an interesting explanation from the point of view of the dealer. You make it almost sound like planned obsolescence. Are you saying that the frequent model improvements from the brands that use brick and mortar distribution models are to stimulate sales activity which support the retailer through constant purchases and upgrading and less because of continued research, new discoveries and advances in technology? Don't the new models almost always sound better also?

absolutely not a matter of obsolescence. it's a matter of commerce. or rather a greater degree of focus on commerce. the larger one's sales chain, the more levels that need to be supported, the more activity and turnover is required. which as you say also drives research and increases budgets for development. so there is value to the consumer combined with a need for market stimulation.

it's up to the individual consumer to judge the overall value equation. but frequent model introductions have an effect on choices owners of the products have.

In the case of Magico, the Q5 arguably sounded better than the M5, the Q1 sounded better than the Mini 2, and the S5 sounded better than the V3, all of which cost less than what they replaced. That may stimulate sales activity, but it also offers some good opportunities to get better sound for those who want the latest and also opportunities for those who want close to current performance at good prices.

agree that performance can increase in a linear way better. but products do get dated in relatively short time frames. the consumer simply has to make an educated choice as to what is best for him.

By contrast, brands that use direct to consumer distribution models may not update model lines as frequently, so the speakers may be the same for years but still have price increases because of manufacturing costs going up. Those customers pay more after a few years for the same speaker that has been in production for a while.

I guess it is just a different approach.

in my particular case for example, I bought used (for $4500) Wilson Watt Puppy 3/2's in 1995, then sold those in 1997 and bought new Wilson WP 5.1's in 1997, then traded them in for Wilson 6.0's in 1999. then in 2001 I sold the Wilson WP 6.0's (for approx 50% of retail) and purchased Kharma Exquisite Reference 1D's and had them for 4 years and then sold them for approx. 60% of the original retail value. I then purchased Von Schweikert VR9SE's and owned them for 2 years and again sold them for approximately 66% of the original retail value. and then purchased Evolution Acoustics MM3's and owned them for 6 years and sold them for 70% of the original retail value. all three models were very scarce when I sold them and sold immediately when I offered them for sale. based on my careful purchasing of those three speakers systems I happened to make a little profit on each one. but the case to be made is that they retained a high percentage of their original retail value.

the 13 year old Kharmas and 8 year old Von Schweikerts are still essentially current models with slightly different drivers and crossovers that were both upgradeable; the 8 year old MM3's are still a current model. no one who owns any of those models thinks they don't have relevant high performance speakers.

you are right; it's a different approach.

i think the real issue is the value in performance for the dollar. i think the reason i was able to get such a large % of retail value for the speakers i sold is that they originally offered outstanding performance for the dollar....or maybe i just got lucky. the question for the consumer is to find that great value equation. do the high dollar brick and mortar speakers offer that? future value will tell us that down the road.

 

[cannata]

Magico does not operate like Wilson (or some of the other brands mentioned). They don’t do minor improvements to an existing design only to introduce it as a new product. They actually do quite radical advancement/changes when they do introduce a new product. You can’t just offer an “upgrade” to an older model, it basically would have to be completely redone to accommodate these new features. Take from example the new tweeter. It is bigger than the one in the current Q7 (28mm vs 26mm). That means that in order to fit it to an existing Q7, you will have to change the face plate. That is a huge endeavor. It is also less efficient, so it will not work with the Q7 midrange, etc... That is just one example. Magico is not your typical high-end integrator. They actually do design and build products as a whole, so everything depends on everything else. You can’t just “plug and play” these improvements as you see fit.

 

[Steve Williams]

Lloyd, are you saying that Wilson's new tweeter from their flagship XLF can be retrofitted into the rest of their line, or that over time, new models that they introduce will have the new XLF tweeter? Can Wilson speakers be sent to the factory for tweeter upgrades thus introducing the latest technology to customers' existing speakers? This seems to be what Roysen thinks Wilson does and what he wants Magico to do also.

The X2 cannot be upgraded to the XLF.

What LLoyd I'm sure meant was that the new tweeter will trickle and down and show up in other Wilson speakers (as it already has)

 

[LL21]

Lloyd, are you saying that Wilson's new tweeter from their flagship XLF can be retrofitted into the rest of their line, or that over time, new models that they introduce will have the new XLF tweeter? Can Wilson speakers be sent to the factory for tweeter upgrades thus introducing the latest technology to customers' existing speakers? This seems to be what Roysen thinks Wilson does and what he wants Magico to do also.

No I am simply observing that Wilson introduced their new tweeter in the flagship and then offered it in new products DOWN the line (Alexia, Sasha, Sophia, Duette, etc). So it kept the XLF at the top of the heap at all times.

Whereas I guess Roysen was concerned that the Magico 'new tech' came out of a limited edition non-flagship speaker in the middle of their range...and further he seems concerned that this M tweeter may not be available for the Q7, which in some respects might invalidate his Q7 as the undisputed Magico performance leader... which again is clearly not the case with the XLF. I think that is what he is concerned about.

 

[Roysen]

No I am simply observing that Wilson introduced their new tweeter in the flagship and then offered it in new products DOWN the line (Alexia, Sasha, Sophia, Duette, etc). So it kept the XLF at the top of the heap at all times.

Whereas I guess Roysen was concerned that the Magico 'new tech' came out of a limited edition non-flagship speaker in the middle of their range...and further he seems concerned that this M tweeter may not be available for the Q7, which in some respects might invalidate his Q7 as the undisputed Magico performance leader... which again is clearly not the case with the XLF. I think that is what he is concerned about.

Lloyd is correct.

 

[PeterA]

The X2 cannot be upgraded to the XLF.

What LLoyd I'm sure meant was that the new tweeter will trickle and down and show up in other Wilson speakers (as it already has)

Agreed. But I think Roysen's criticism of Magico is that the flagship Q7 can not be upgraded. That seems to also be the case with Wilson's flagship XLF. If one argues that the Q7 is no longer the Magico flagship (excluding the Ultimate 3 of course), and that the flagship is now the M Project speaker with its new tweeter, than that case is still like that of the Wilson XLF. The speaker with the latest drivers can not be upgraded. The new Magico tweeter may in fact "trickle down" into future Magico speakers, just like the XLF tweeter does at Wilson. I see the two brands as more similar than different in this regard. So I don't understand Roysen's request that Magico treats its most loyal customers (those with the flagships in his words) with an upgrade path for its flagship speaker. Wilson does not do this either. Perhaps I'm just dense.

 

[Roysen]

Agreed. But I think Roysen's criticism of Magico is that the flagship Q7 can not be upgraded. That seems to also be the case with Wilson's flagship XLF. If one argues that the Q7 is no longer the Magico flagship (excluding the Ultimate 3 of course), and that the flagship is now the M Project speaker with its new tweeter, than that case is still like that of the Wilson XLF. The speaker with the latest drivers can not be upgraded. The new Magico tweeter may in fact "trickle down" into future Magico speakers, just like the XLF tweeter does at Wilson. I see the two brands as more similar than different in this regard. So I don't understand Roysen's request that Magico treats its most loyal customers (those with the flagships in his words) with an upgrade path for its flagship speaker. Wilson does not do this either. Perhaps I'm just dense.

No, you obviously haven't understood what I mean. My point is that the flaship speaker Magico Q7 is not the current flagship in all regards. They decided to release a speaker in the middle of their range (the M Project) where they introduced new technology outperforming the technology found in the flagship without any real prostpect of a trickle down or even trickle up of technology. That release has influence on the second hand value of their actual flaghsip the Q7. So instead of doing as Wilson did and release the best technology in the flagship and let the technology trickle down (which would be the best way) they now have to offer a trickle up of technolgy to maintain the same undisputed top of the line product in the Q7. I think they owe the customers having bought the Q7 with the beleif that they have bought the best and most ambitous Magico speaker available which will continue to have Magico's support as their flagship. Like Wilson have done with the XLF. Your assumption that the M Project now is the flagship is from what I understand wrong accoding to what Magico is saying themselves. The Q7 is still the flagship. Like Wilson they should look after their most loyal and best paying customers and offer the best technology into their flagship products first and then offer tricle down technology from there like Wilson does and not offer their best technology in a middle of the range speaker unless they intend to offer a trickle up upgrade of the flagship with that technology to keep the investment of their best customers intact. Those who trusted Magico with their money have now been led into a situation where their product has lost a lot of value. That doesn't make the company any easier to trust.

 

[rockitman]

roysen,

good point about trickle up tech from the M to Q series option rather than having to wait for the new, new Q7. Wilson did that for the X-2 series 1 to series 2. With the advent of different cabinet design of the XLF, the tickle up had to end for that speaker. I would be surprised that Q7 owners were not offered upgrade tech/crossover on their flagship Q7 dynamic speaker, if it was determined the M project is a better speaker than the Q7.

 

[bvdiman]

No, you obviously haven't understood what I mean. My point is that the flaship speaker Magico Q7 is not the current flagship in all regards. They decided to release a speaker in the middle of their range (the M Project) where they introduced new technology outperforming the technology found in the flagship without any real prostpect of a trickle down or even trickle up of technology. That release has influence on the second hand value of their actual flaghsip the Q7. So instead of doing as Wilson did and release the best technology in the flagship and let the technology trickle down (which would be the best way) they now have to offer a trickle up of technolgy to maintain the same undisputed top of the line product in the Q7. I think they owe the customers having bought the Q7 with the beleif that they have bought the best and most ambitous Magico speaker available which will continue to have Magico's support as their flagship. Like Wilson have done with the XLF. Your assumption that the M Project now is the flagship is from what I understand wrong accoding to what Magico is saying themselves. The Q7 is still the flagship. Like Wilson they should look after their most loyal and best paying customers and offer the best technology into their flagship products first and then offer tricle down technology from there like Wilson does and not offer their best technology in a middle of the range speaker unless they intend to offer a trickle up upgrade of the flagship with that technology to keep the investment of their best customers intact. Those who trusted Magico with their money have now been led into a situation where their product has lost a lot of value. That doesn't make the company any easier to trust.

If they did, they would/should have done it ages ago.
Historically, look at *M6 > M5 > Q5 no trickle down nothing simply evolution to newer models. I have friends who bought M6s new, both have since upgraded to M5 and now Q7. One dumped them for really cheap, and the other kept them for use as rear channel in a/v system. I think it 'a risk' one has to take daring along the bleeding edge sota stuffs - not exclusively of Magico.

Understood what you meant that they should protect Q7 owners by introducing the Q7mkII instead incorporating all those latest goodies, with option allowing existing users to upgrade. And only after, let it trickle down the line? But then, the M-Project is being marketed as a limited production run.. Oh well..

*Note that (in Magico's case) with each intro, the superseded models while costing more are usually outperformed overall by the new. I suppose good things 'really' come to those who wait??

 

[PeterA]

Your assumption that the M Project now is the flagship is from what I understand wrong accoding to what Magico is saying themselves.

I don't assume that the M Project is the new flagship. I wrote above that some people might argue that it is. I don't know as I have only heard the Q7 and not the M Project. They could have released a Q8 with the new tweeter, the bass capabilities of the Q7 and some of the other innovations of the M Project and sold it for more than the Q7. A new flagship. That too would have hurt the resale of the Q7, just as the new XLF hurt the resale of the X2.2.

The M Project is limited and almost sold out right now. Once it is no longer available to buy, the Q7 will again be the best available Magico, other than the U3, until something new comes along.

I think Cannata is correct. Magico designs each speaker as a whole and introduces new developments as they are discovered and become available. There are new ideas in the S3 which came after the S5. It's just a different model than what Wilson seems to be doing. Some might argue that it is more revolutionary than evolutionary.

I now understand your frustration, but I would hold of judgement about the value of the M Project versus your Q7 until you've had a chance to hear both. You may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[stereo]

The Q7 will stay on market for a while, it remains the flagship in Magico range (excluding the Ultimate). Even after the launch of the M-project. If the M-project would be a Q, it could have been named a Q6.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

The last few post could represent a snapshot of we, audiophiles, mindset. Newer =Better in this worldview: No one has yet heard the M Project speaker, yet many infer its tweeter to be superior to that of the Q7. moreover said tweeter could well be superior to that of the Q7 that wouldn't necessarily make the "M" a superior speaker.

I like the pace that Magico has set; it has its pitfalls but constantly improving the SOTA is what High End should be about not ever increasing prices .. although this price seems to have its staunch defenders/advocates...An interesting phenomenon...

 

[Roysen]

I don't assume that the M Project is the new flagship. I wrote above that some people might argue that it is. I don't know as I have only heard the Q7 and not the M Project. They could have released a Q8 with the new tweeter, the bass capabilities of the Q7 and some of the other innovations of the M Project and sold it for more than the Q7. A new flagship. That too would have hurt the resale of the Q7, just as the new XLF hurt the resale of the X2.2.

The M Project is limited and almost sold out right now. Once it is no longer available to buy, the Q7 will again be the best available Magico, other than the U3, until something new comes along.

I think Cannata is correct. Magico designs each speaker as a whole and introduces new developments as they are discovered and become available. There are new ideas in the S3 which came after the S5. It's just a different model than what Wilson seems to be doing. Some might argue that it is more revolutionary than evolutionary.

I now understand your frustration, but I would hold of judgement about the value of the M Project versus your Q7 until you've had a chance to hear both. You may be pleasantly surprised.

You still don't seem to grasp what I am trying to say here completely. I am saying that I fear that there will be no upgrades possible for the Q7 based on the history of available upgrades from Magico. I am also saying that I am quite displeased if that turns out to be true. I don't like the that business model Magico has applied especially when the dealer network they have set up here can not support their business model by allowing trade-ins. I fully understand that they probably will not offer any upgrades. I still don't approve of such a policy. I think it is plain wrong and a way of misleading the customers who have just recently bought the Q7. Having said that I am still convinced that the Q7 is a superior loundspeaker overall than the M Project but the M Project has some technological advancements which probably will make it excel over the Q7 in certain areas such as the tweeter.

To compare when Wilson released the MAX3 they did not include technology in that speaker which outperformed technology in their flagship Alelxandria. That is what Magico has done. It would have been better if they had introduced a new flagship speaker for instance called Q9 with only improved technology over the Q7 and sold that speaker for USD $350K. Instead they have incorporated new and improved technology over the product their best customers have paid big dollar for in a more affordable speaker which is inferior in overall performance without offering an upgrade to the flagship model. I have to say that this doesn't make sense to me and it should not have happened from a serious company. That is my opinion as a Q7 customer and it will be another reason to make me think not twice but four or five times before purchasing any Magico products in the future. I don't seem to be able to trust Magico looking after the value of my investment in their falgship products. That is important to me when I decide where I want to invest my money.

 

[microstrip]

This thread remembers me of the time when Magico replaced the M5 with the Q5, that in spite of a much lower price was considered a much better speaker.

 

[Roysen]

Hi

The last few post could represent a snapshot of we, audiophiles, mindset. Newer =Better in this worldview: No one has yet heard the M Project speaker, yet many infer its tweeter to be superior to that of the Q7. moreover said tweeter could well be superior to that of the Q7 that wouldn't necessarily make the "M" a superior speaker.

I like the pace that Magico has set; it has its pitfalls but constantly improving the SOTA is what High End should be about not ever increasing prices .. although this price seems to have its staunch defenders/advocates...An interesting phenomenon...

That is not a good understanding of what has been written. Nobody has claimed the M Project is superior to the Q7 overall. What has been said is that in certain areas the new technology offered in the M Profject is an advancement over the one available in the Q7.

Also nobody has said anything to defend the prices of the Magico products neither the M Project nor the Q7. What has actually been written is on the contrary that because of the high prices Magico should be concerned with protecting the investment their customers have made buying their most expensive products. As a consequence the newest and most advanced technology should be introduced in those models first with trickle down effect to its smaller models. This is common sense and a strategy employed by virtually every other brand in the business.

 

[bvdiman]

The Q7 will stay on market for a while, it remains the flagship in Magico range (excluding the Ultimate). Even after the launch of the M-project. If the M-project would be a Q, it could have been named a Q6.

Or perhaps another totally new line, say a QS7. Then as usual in sizes S, M, L soon after.

 

[microstrip]

Really?
I thought Wilson did just that: update their flagship with a new tweeter, that CAN'T be retrofitted in their previous flagship. Tough on X2.2 owners who had just purchased theirs at $160k, and their resale value dropped to 1/2 or worse, overnight.

AND, the M Project is not Magico's flagship. For that, look for the Q7. It's just a commemorative, limited edition loudspeaker. I see it kinda like when Sonus faber put ribbon tweeters on the limited editions Stradivari, for the Asian market.


alexandre

Alexandre,

The XLF had a lot more than a new tweeter - it was not possible to upgrade, even the dimensions of the speakers were different. Owners who had just purchased the X2 series 2 when the XLF was launched were offered the possibility of returning the X2 and getting the XLF for a very attractive price difference.

 

[stereo]

Hi

The last few post could represent a snapshot of we, audiophiles, mindset. Newer =Better in this worldview: No one has yet heard the M Project speaker, yet many infer its tweeter to be superior to that of the Q7. moreover said tweeter could well be superior to that of the Q7 that wouldn't necessarily make the "M" a superior speaker.

I like the pace that Magico has set; it has its pitfalls but constantly improving the SOTA is what High End should be about not ever increasing prices .. although this price seems to have its staunch defenders/advocates...An interesting phenomenon...

Agree.
On the tweeter: the Q7 has a very different design than the rest of the Q range. Same for the other drivers, for the XO, etc - this is why it will remain the cost-no-object reference in Magico range for a while. I think that the M-project will sound significantly better than Q5 because of better tweeter, more powerful bass, easier to drive, better box diffraction. And it is a more beautiful design than the Q, I love the carbon sides.

 

[PeterA]

Magico was criticized in a previous thread for having terrible customer service. That thread was not only closed down, it was erased and scrubbed from this site. It now seems that a new attempt to criticize Magico's product development decisions is under way. Why so much dissatisfaction? The Q7 is a great speaker and remains the company's flagship. The M-Project is a very exciting, but quite different, new speaker.

Magico has a long pattern of introducing new models with new technologies. It is their business approach and, judging from the many happy customers, it seems to be very successful.