Horns with SS amp instead of Tube (se)!?

[ddk]

There were subjective quotes about that shootout where they preferred JMLC

Please !

david

 

[Duke LeJeune]

I didn’t, I posted to Duke's reflection diffraction comment and since he is a speaker designer, I thought he might find it useful

And I did indeed, though it took me a while to get past my antivirus software which thought the site was dangerous. Thank you!!

I still haven't digested all of the information in L'Cleach's measurements.

One thing that stands out to me is that the two "winners" are both round horns with nice big round-overs at the mouth. I forgot to mention in my earlier post that a sharp-edged lip can also be a source of diffraction and/or undesirable reflections. I THINK the "flower petal" lippage of the also-high-scoring Acoustihorn Conical (presumably a Bill Woods design) is intended to smear the reflection/diffraction at the mouth such that its effect is less concentrated, while allowing closer driver spacing than a big roundover would.

The winning general format isn't necessarily "news" to me, but it IS encouraging, as I'm currently working on round horns with big round-overs at the mouth.

 

[Robh3606]

Maybe a speaker designer might find something useful in this but what did you get from this? The methedology is limiting and some of the horn/speaker pairings are wrong or strange, just look at the S2 and the Stereolab horn pairing. I wouldn't call this a shootout or conclusive only a record of what he found in his limited tests.

I agree I remember reviewing the measurements and had issues with several and didn't understand the emphasis on group delay where an arbitrary number was chosen that is well bellow the audibility threshold.

Rob

 

[bonzo75]

Multicells

 

[Alrainbow]

Look at those ears , Which one is Ked ...?

 

[bonzo75]

Look at those ears , Which one is Ked ...?

Which one looks golden?

 

[bonzo75]

This one should do well in audio exotics where they like flashy stuff

 

[Alrainbow]

Is That mono ..?

 

[totaldac]

You should try first watt type or Berning quadrature or just biamping with low watt SETs and a higher watt SS or class D to the bass

In the past I tried using a low wattage triode amp for mid-high and a solid state amp for the bass but it didn't work fine. Each type of amplifier gives a certain size and a certain distance to the reproduced instruments, all are fine, just different, but when you mix them you can fill these differences, so it is missing coherency, especially the fondamental and the harmonics of some instruments being treated differently. The feeling of slam/impact is also different, and this is true for all frequencies, not only for bass.
So now I prefer using a single amplifier, or using several pieces of the same amplifier for an active system.
So 10 years ago I used four 300B triode monoblocs to drive my bass horn system (with active crossover)


Now I rather use one big hybrid amplifier to drive my three different pairs of speakers: Totaldac d150-anniversary, a custom large coax horn system and Magico M6, .
A good amplifier should be able to drive roughly all speakers, or should be able to be used for any active speakers. Recently a customer in France bought 2 of my stereo amplifiers to drive a high efficiency active speaker (2-way active and with the treble having its passive filter).

 

[simonms]

And I did indeed, though it took me a while to get past my antivirus software which thought the site was dangerous. Thank you!!

I still haven't digested all of the information in L'Cleach's measurements.

One thing that stands out to me is that the two "winners" are both round horns with nice big round-overs at the mouth. I forgot to mention in my earlier post that a sharp-edged lip can also be a source of diffraction and/or undesirable reflections. I THINK the "flower petal" lippage of the also-high-scoring Acoustihorn Conical (presumably a Bill Woods design) is intended to smear the reflection/diffraction at the mouth such that its effect is less concentrated, while allowing closer driver spacing than a big roundover would.

The winning general format isn't necessarily "news" to me, but it IS encouraging, as I'm currently working on round horns with big round-overs at the mouth.

Hi LeJeune,

When considering making such horns in wood consideration must be taken in terms of joinery, my approach after seeing many many failures in both older horns and recently made is to make channels (think tongue and groove) for each section to be glued and clamped especially at the roundover point. Always worth making fixtures for good clamping pressure.

Here are a few pictures to explain.

 

[totaldac]

Hi,
Here is how made round horns by hand:

round horns

 

[simonms]

Very nice, most of my work is done by hand but when it comes to big horns, especially full rollback I prefer the cnc route, my post was more intended to detail joinery especially on the outer roundover area for full roll back LC. An interlocking join on the full perimeter means strength and stability. I have seen so many of these type of laminated joins fail and open up with changes in humidity temp etc. Just wanted to point out my experience to avoid costly mistakes.

 

[Chrispb1]

Avantgarde duo mezzo xd‘s arrives next week replacing Focal maestro utopia’s currently driven by Levinson 33h’s. Does anyone have experience of Avantgarde with Levinson or similar high powered amps. Thanks

 

[Hear Here]

Avantgarde duo mezzo xd‘s arrives next week replacing Focal maestro utopia’s currently driven by Levinson 33h’s. Does anyone have experience of Avantgarde with Levinson or similar high powered amps. Thanks

Congrats on the forthcoming arrival of the new member of your family! Avantgarde Mezzo only needs a handful of watts, but my experience with Duo XDs is that too much power is no problem. Ideally you want a low gain amp, but I've used amps of up to 250 watts without undue concern and my current one is rated at 200 into 8 ohms.

If you can train your preamp to limit its output thus reducing the chance of over-blasting the speakers, so much the better. I suspect you could find an amp that offers a greater excitement factor to your music than the ML, but it's a trial and error game to find what you like best. I tried a dozen amps and eventually chose a Class D one. Shock, horror, but it sounds very good powering the Duos and is (I can only say this on this forum!) ridiculously cheap.

Let us know your take on the Mezzos when they arrive. You'll need a lot of setting up time to get them performing at their best, but well worth it and you'll probably be infuriated that the XD software needs external equipment (calibrated mic and measurement software) to be of real use, unless you are able to judge entirely by ear what needs to be adjusted. Your dealer should have a kit to help with this job but wait several weeks until you have the speakers positioned ideally (location, toe-in, tilt, etc) and they have a good number of hours on the clock. Good luck. Peter

 

[Chrispb1]

Congrats on the forthcoming arrival of the new member of your family! Avantgarde Mezzo only needs a handful of watts, but my experience with Duo XDs is that too much power is no problem. Ideally you want a low gain amp, but I've used amps of up to 250 watts without undue concern and my current one is rated at 200 into 8 ohms.

If you can train your preamp to limit its output thus reducing the chance of over-blasting the speakers, so much the better. I suspect you could find an amp that offers a greater excitement factor to your music than the ML, but it's a trial and error game to find what you like best. I tried a dozen amps and eventually chose a Class D one. Shock, horror, but it sounds very good powering the Duos and is (I can only say this on this forum!) ridiculously cheap.

Let us know your take on the Mezzos when they arrive. You'll need a lot of setting up time to get them performing at their best, but well worth it and you'll probably be infuriated that the XD software needs external equipment (calibrated mic and measurement software) to be of real use, unless you are able to judge entirely by ear what needs to be adjusted. Your dealer should have a kit to help with this job but wait several weeks until you have the speakers positioned ideally (location, toe-in, tilt, etc) and they have a good number of hours on the clock. Good luck. Peter

Great Peter, just the type of response I was hoping for, thanks. Would you mind sharing which class D amp you’re using please, I’m happy to try any technology.
I’m using a Levinson 523 pre which has the option to fix the max volume and over the full range has very fine (1000 increments) volume adjustment, so fingers cross that should be ok.
I had a pair of Audio Music 833 SET’s at 120 Watts and they had a special “something” but just not enough current, compared to the Levinson to drive the Maestro’s sub 2 Ohm dip, so they had to go. Ideally I like a low output solid state as I also use the speakers for home cinema and tubes put extra light and heat into the room, well the 833’s did rather a lot, so class D would be very appealing.

 

[Hear Here]

Hi Chris. My equipment is in my Signature - it's actually up to date!

I made a conscious decision to move away from SETs that I'd been using for 15 years or so with Avantgarde speakers (Unos, Duos and now Duo XDs) as I knew I'd listen to far more music without valves burning away. My SETs used 300B, 845 and PX-25 output tubes and they sounded very good for certain types of music.

I home tried (with demo units or my own purchases) many SS amps including Class A, AB and D in the £4-8K range. I found that none bettered the modest NAD M32 integrated, but I now have the latest M33. Most were power amps though some were integrated or all-in-ones. The M33 uses Purifi technology, the latest and probably the best Class D available now. Since I purchased, it’s been showered with Stereophile and other awards. Worth a trial anyway, despite its low price in relation to your speakers, or even mine. I’m sure you could do better and probably your MLs will do just that, but the ML 5805 was slightly lacking in the goosebump presentation that I look for in an amp. Peter

 

[Chrispb1]

Hi Chris. My equipment is in my Signature - it's actually up to date!

I made a conscious decision to move away from SETs that I'd been using for 15 years or so with Avantgarde speakers (Unos, Duos and now Duo XDs) as I knew I'd listen to far more music without valves burning away. My SETs used 300B, 845 and PX-25 output tubes and they sounded very good for certain types of music.

I home tried (with demo units or my own purchases) many SS amps including Class A, AB and D in the £4-8K range. I found that none bettered the modest NAD M32 integrated, but I now have the latest M33. Most were power amps though some were integrated or all-in-ones. The M33 uses Purifi technology, the latest and probably the best Class D available now. Since I purchased, it’s been showered with Stereophile and other awards. Worth a trial anyway, despite its low price in relation to your speakers, or even mine. I’m sure you could do better and probably your MLs will do just that, but the ML 5805 was slightly lacking in the goosebump presentation that I look for in an amp. Peter

Thanks again Peter, that‘s opened the options list. The Benchmark AHB2 is interesting as is the new JBL class G.
AG‘s arrived on Monday, early observations are very tight tuneful bass, but haven’t yet managed to get the sound stage focus that I get with Focal‘s, though I spent a long time getting those right before I was happy. There’s also a hardness at some frequencies, typically vocals, which is more apparent as the volume increases, though I’m thinking this is down the electronics, which were chosen to match the Focal’s.

 

[morricab]

Thanks again Peter, that‘s opened the options list. The Benchmark AHB2 is interesting as is the new JBL class G.
AG‘s arrived on Monday, early observations are very tight tuneful bass, but haven’t yet managed to get the sound stage focus that I get with Focal‘s, though I spent a long time getting those right before I was happy. There’s also a hardness at some frequencies, typically vocals, which is more apparent as the volume increases, though I’m thinking this is down the electronics, which were chosen to match the Focal’s.

THose 833s you sold would have worked very well I think.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thanks again Peter, that‘s opened the options list. The Benchmark AHB2 is interesting as is the new JBL class G.
AG‘s arrived on Monday, early observations are very tight tuneful bass, but haven’t yet managed to get the sound stage focus that I get with Focal‘s, though I spent a long time getting those right before I was happy. There’s also a hardness at some frequencies, typically vocals, which is more apparent as the volume increases, though I’m thinking this is down the electronics, which were chosen to match the Focal’s.

Hi Chris. I think you’ll be a lot happier with a low noise SET driving your new speakers. I used to own Focal Maestros a long time ago so know them very well.
The AG speakers will be extremely revealing of the electronics and indeed sources.
When you made the change, what specific sonic aspects were you trying to improve on vs your Focal based system?

 

[wil]

Have you tried to demo the Bakoon 13r? Very small, easy to ship and demo. For me it was the best I heard with my Mezzo's compared to 4 different SET's. I also demoed a DartZeel integrated which was excellent also. As far as SET's go, my favorite was the LTA MZ3 (1 watt!).