How Do Horn Speakers Get Their Gorgeous Life-like Tonality?

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill,
What speakers are you currently using with the Mayer and what speakers are your end game?

Hi Jeffrey,

I was using Loth X Minstrels (single driver back loaded horns from 80s) last week and now enjoying some very rare early Wharfedale Airedale type speakers - I understand one of 2 pairs made of this particular model.

I honestly don’t know what my end game is yet but pretty certain it’ll be a custom designed horn - I am in talks on this matter right now. It will not be a dsp crossover multiway horn solution though.

What I can tell you is that I had no hesitation dropping my old system over night and moving to new pastures. Why? I heard the Pnoes last December and realised I was barking up the wrong alley and needed to do something about it before I got myself deeper into the hole I was digging.

Speakers are very personal and I think we probably need to go on a journey of some sort to know where we will eventually land. I don’t think for one minute that there is one panacea. I have truly loved stats also and could see this route being viable for me but I only wish to run low powered triodes now for my sins as the musical truth for me lies there - that truth is largely biased towards emotional connection and timbral authenticity. If I am not lost immediately in the music then it’ll not suffice for me

 

[morricab]

While I think you're on to something (I've never heard a valve preamp that didn't muddy up the sound by comparison) I think you can do much better than the Soulution. Try the dartzeel for a LOT less coloration.

You haven’t heard the Aries Cerat Impera by chance, have you?

 

[bonzo75]

You haven’t heard the Aries Cerat Impera by chance, have you?

Actually, he did audition the pre along with a few others iirc.

 

[morricab]

Actually, he did audition the pre along with a few others iirc.

Why don’t you let him reply...

 

[bonzo75]

Why don’t you let him reply...

My bad. I just wrote what I recalled

 

[c1ferrari]

Why would you remain mum?

Decorum.

 

[MadFloyd]

Yes, several audiophile friends and I have moved to TVCs for this reason. They sound better directly to tube amps as well. I would love to compare my Music First to the Dartzeel. I hope Bazelio gets the chance.

Have you settled on the Dart permanently? I saw you had a GAT but didn’t know the resolution.

Yes, I've settled on the Dart.

 

[c1ferrari]

The reason I mention this is because the dealership was introducing a new pair of Wilsons. I mentioned that something sounded off, like the phase. The point is that the guy did not hear a problem.

I'm given to understand this occurs in the pro universe, too.

 

[jeff1225]

Decorum.

You think it's proper decorum to let someone continue on with a flawed presentation? Wow.

 

[c1ferrari]

You think it's proper decorum to let someone continue on with a flawed presentation? Wow.

It wasn't a presentation...

 

[tima]

Totally agree. I'm not sure "perfect" speaker set up is even possible. One could always slightly adjust it for a slightly different sound which might be subjectively just as good, but different. It is about the customer being satisfied, and the dealers do not always provide this satisfaction.

I canna speak for dealers because no experience there, but if you have Wilsons set up by Wilson factory personnel they will be done right for the room. To their satisfaction and yours.

 

[morricab]

My bad. I just wrote what I recalled

No worries, I just remembered that at best Joshua was passing through Boston area and a real demo may or may not happen...never heard if Madfloyd got to hear an Impera.

 

[DaveC]

It's hard to make a really good preamp, tube or SS. You have volume control, amplification/buffer stage(s), switches, wiring and connectors... all these things have an effect and it's not easy to get every part of it just right and perfectly balanced. It's a wonder what comes out has any resemblance to what's going it.

I do prefer tube preamps though. Passive preamps can be a good way to go but you're depending on the source's output to be adequate and this isn't always the case. If you want a preamp that's always going to work well and sound the same it needs to have a buffered output. I think this is why you see few high end commercial passive preamps even though a preamp with gain is often not required.

Anyways, my next preamp will have a silver TVC volume control and DHT triode buffered output using something close to a White Cathode Follower circuit, so each channel needs a matched pair of triodes, with one of them serving as a plate load for the other.

@Audiophile Bill I've read a lot of Thomas Mayer's blog and I think he has a good intuitive grasp on tube circuits and has done a lot of testing and building. I haven't heard any of his creations, but I wouldn't be surprised if he makes some of the best amps/preamps you can possibly get.

 

[Folsom]

I think the big question is to use gain or not on SS. Sonics are typically better without, but people like flexibility. Tubes basically just come with it.

 

[Tango]

What I can tell you is that I had no hesitation dropping my old system over night and moving to new pastures. Why? I heard the Pnoes last December and realised I was barking up the wrong alley and needed to do something about it before I got myself deeper into the hole I was digging.

ThePnoe are too big for your place Bill?

Tang

 

[kodomo]

I really would like to listen to a Pnoe to get it and to learn. I can not get my head around the problems with its topology. The backloaded horn is creating a time delay that overlaps with the front wave. The front loaded horn would also have problems with beaming for upper frequencies but I guess that is not happening because of the horn within the horn (drivers own horn) and the actual clear horn is very shallow and does not horn load but mostly work as a wave guide.

I am assuming that the backwave overlap is creating a false sense of space, a kind of depth. Horn loaded bass is clean. This can have an enveloping spatial effect. The great thing about this is still the drivers. Point source and transient perfect in the most important part of the bandwidth.

These make me think, they would be very good for music that is not extended on bass. Good recordings from 50's would shine, but not the newer modern recorded stuff. These kind of recordings may make this speaker sound disjointed. This is all theoretical based on my previous experiences. I had back loaded horns and even built them myself. I have not built to this degree as I also had klispchorns that had a similar problem that I did not want with my next horns. The same goes for the classic Western Electric large snail horns like 12,13 or 15. However, the problems of WE horns and klipschorns can be overcome via time delaying, but the backwave misalignment in time domain of pnoe can not be solved. Do people who listen to Pnoe listen to classical and jazz from 40's to 60's generally.

 

[Folsom]

Transmission line rear horn loaded speakers can do bass. The issue is that feedback can diminish it greatly because of how they work. That’s a problem for more symmetrical, consistent, bass production like found in more modern music. Try something that doesn’t really have much for feedback, or a current source amp on a single driver and you’ll be able to rock out to EDM just fine.

Spatial cues are higher frequencies. Bass is just vibrations till it has accompanied frequencies defining it.

 

[christoph]

There are direct radiator systems I can live with although I love horns.

Can you share which ones that would be for you?

 

[christoph]

I honestly don’t know what my end game is yet but pretty certain it’ll be a custom designed horn - I am in talks on this matter right now. It will not be a dsp crossover multiway horn solution though.

Why not the Pnoe?

What I can tell you is that I had no hesitation dropping my old system over night and moving to new pastures. Why? I heard the Pnoes last December and realised I was barking up the wrong alley and needed to do something about it before I got myself deeper into the hole I was digging.

I think I know quite a few people telling you exactly that. I was one of them

 

[christoph]

I canna speak for dealers because no experience there, but if you have Wilsons set up by Wilson factory personnel they will be done right for the room. To their satisfaction and yours.

Don't you think you experienced "special pampering", being an audio reviewer?