"If you don't have a $200k [speaker]..."

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I do not know the model number but Borresson has a bookshelf speaker for $100K. I just can't see myself buying something like that unless I had stupid money. I do not care how good it sounds.

I am debating whether to keep the speakers that are pictured left. I love them. They sound great and are medium size speakers that fill a 30' x 45' room. So, why am I flying to California later this month to hear the Aries Cerat Aurora speakers??? My wife is ready to kill me and they are priced well over $100k. That is not Chump Change for me either.

Does size matter? Hmmm, let me ask my wife. I had Wilson Audio Duette 2's in a very large room and while they were great, I did go to a larger Sonus Faber Amati Tradition Homage speaker. Size did matter in my case!

I have the same experience with my budget Focal Electra Be's i.e. I listened to both my 1038 Floor Standers alongside my 1008 book shelf / stand mount speakers. Both connected to exactly same system in the same room etc. The 1038's were by far superior across the complete sound frequency spectrum which is expected as the 1008 only has a tweeter and a combined midrange & bass drivers, the 1038 has a tweeter, two midrange drivers and one bass driver. The specs also show that the 1038 has a far larger frequency range which I could clearly hear.

So as well as physical size of the depth of the cabinets (for good low frequency sound) the height and width of the cabinets is also important in order to cater for more drivers etc.

 

[Fred Crane]

i don’t need a 200k speaker in fact I don’t want the the 200k or more speakers I have heard but I wish I had the money to think that was chump change. To achieve that you either need to inherit a lot and be a dummy yourself, or achieve so much in your professional life you don’t have time to listen to loudspeakers

I used to hear (back when $100k was a lot for a pair of speakers) that many six figure offerings were proof of concept exercises as opposed to good sounding speakers. More often, I preferred a model lower down on the respective makers totem pole.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I have the same experience with my budget Focal Electra Be's i.e. I listened to both my 1038 Floor Standers alongside my 1008 book shelf / stand mount speakers. Both connected to exactly same system in the same room etc. The 1038's were by far superior across the complete sound frequency spectrum which is expected as the 1008 only has a tweeter and a combined midrange & bass drivers, the 1038 has a tweeter, two midrange drivers and one bass driver. The specs also show that the 1038 has a far larger frequency range which I could clearly hear.

So as well as physical size of the depth of the cabinets (for good low frequency sound) the height and width of the cabinets is also important in order to cater for more drivers etc.

Sorry....incorrect info..... the 1038 has one midrange driver siting above the tweeter and three bass drivers below the tweeter driver !

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, small speakers cannot produce low frequency bass just purely on their physical limitations.

Bass performance from speakers that have big drivers also isn't always guaranteed as you need respectable physical cabinet depth as well.

This is one of the design flaws for thin depth electrostatic speakers where you get fantastic treble and upper mids but the low frequency bass is none existent i.e. you also need good sub woofers to go with them to have nice full spectrum frequency of sound.

Most speakers even mediocre performance one's can represent pretty good treble. However us poor humans are quite limited to high frequencies especially as you get older and yet speaker manufacturers love to publish very high frequencies, far higher us humans could ever dictate in hearing fully. Your pet dog or cat may turn there head and bark or meow though lol .

When I am in the market for a speaker, first thing I look at is the value of the lowest frequency it can produce. You will see there are not too many in the very low frequency levels and the ones that are, are quite expensive !

If you are comparing speaker A vs speaker B for each speaker's bass, what you said is fine.

The point is to compare bass and stage of speaker vs bass and stage of recording. Very different things if each time the bass and stage of the speaker is being imposed on each recording (which is quite common) and to get past that auditioning has to be using good LPs, else this will not show.

 

[Lagonda]

Yes, small speakers cannot produce low frequency bass just purely on their physical limitations.

Bass performance from speakers that have big drivers also isn't always guaranteed as you need respectable physical cabinet depth as well.

This is one of the design flaws for thin depth electrostatic speakers where you get fantastic treble and upper mids but the low frequency bass is none existent i.e. you also need good sub woofers to go with them to have nice full spectrum frequency of sound.

Most speakers even mediocre performance one's can represent pretty good treble. However us poor humans are quite limited to high frequencies especially as you get older and yet speaker manufacturers love to publish very high frequencies, far higher us humans could ever dictate in hearing fully. Your pet dog or cat may turn there head and bark or meow though lol .

When I am in the market for a speaker, first thing I look at is the value of the lowest frequency it can produce. You will see there are not too many in the very low frequency levels and the ones that are, are quite expensive !

Using a lot of drivers can substitute the large cabinet size and give you good speed too. Look how small and discrete sub-towers can be ! Sorry for the picture quality, i have been waiting for a sunny day but it is dark in Denmark most of the time this time of year !

 

[cjfrbw]

I used to hear (back when $100k was a lot for a pair of speakers) that many six figure offerings were proof of concept exercises as opposed to good sounding speakers. More often, I preferred a model lower down on the respective makers totem pole.

Yes, this is what I have heard over the years as well. However, large room and large speakers can have unique dynamics. I think that part of the survival reflex of the hearing system can sense the size and scale of the acoustic air spring (approaching dinosaur stomps in 10,000 B.C.?). It's probably why headphones will never ultimately compete with speakers in a space.

 

[Fred Crane]

Yes, this is what I have heard over the years as well. However, large room and large speakers can have unique dynamics. I think that part of the survival reflex of the hearing system can sense the size and scale of the acoustic air spring (approaching dinosaur stomps in 10,000 B.C.?). It's probably why headphones will never ultimately compete with speakers in a space.

Oh, there's no doubt that when done well, statement speakers win the day...the physics of moving air well are unarguable once experienced without a list of glaring caveats. (i.e. show conditions) They give me that tingle...that "Real Alarm' that is so very rare. Pure Magic.

it's just not often that they're done well. Perhaps most demo spaces are going to be set up under the gun and without the time and care that a true home installation might afford. Then again, there are those statement speakers that simply aren't very good : 'great frequency response without coherence or low level dynamics', would be a typical complaint.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

If you are comparing speaker A vs speaker B for each speaker's bass, what you said is fine.

The point is to compare bass and stage of speaker vs bass and stage of recording. Very different things if each time the bass and stage of the speaker is being imposed on each recording (which is quite common) and to get past that auditioning has to be using good LPs, else this will not show.

Yes bonzo75. I used various genres of music from my CD Transport system, but haven't tried it with my analogue rig yet as I would need to transport my XL DC and CH P1 from UK home to my home Spain (as this is where my 1038's are) and buy a good quality hifi rack that could take the weight of the XL DC and CH P1 etc.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Using a lot of drivers can substitute the large cabinet size and give you good speed too. Look how small and discrete sub-towers can be ! Sorry for the picture quality, i have been waiting for a sunny day but it is dark in Denmark most of the time this time of year ! View attachment 104182 View attachment 104183

I wouldn't say these speakers are book shelf size 'Lagonda'

 

[Al M.]

When I am in the market for a speaker, first thing I look at is the value of the lowest frequency it can produce. You will see there are not too many in the very low frequency levels and the ones that are, are quite expensive !

Those speakers that come with separate bass towers, essentially fulfilling the function of subwoofers (or more), may not need separate subwoofers. Any other speakers, including all those that are advertised as "full range", need subwoofers, imo (at the very least, if you want to play deep-bass electronica). Looking for the last few Hz from a single-cabinet speaker is futile in my opinion. Why spend extra money on that, if you should buy subwoofers anyway?

Besides, single-cabinet speakers often do not meet their, mostly optimistically stated, frequency response in-room. Often set-up in the room that optimizes for other parameters (e.g., soundstage) requires compromise in the bass and bass extension. Subwoofers will help there, again.

 

[Gregadd]

I think Dave Wilson came to this conclusion with the WATT/Puppy. Basically, you are getting two speakers that share a vertical platform. This approach has transferred to his high er priced speakers. A sort of trickle up.
Some of these speakers cross over as high 250hz. That's not really a subwoofer.

 

[cjfrbw]

I suppose bookshelf speaker depends on your bookshelf.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Those speakers that come with separate bass towers, essentially fulfilling the function of subwoofers (or more), may not need separate subwoofers. Any other speakers, including all those that are advertised as "full range", need subwoofers, imo (at the very least, if you want to play deep-bass electronica). Looking for the last few Hz from a single-cabinet speaker is futile in my opinion. Why spend extra money on that, if you should buy subwoofers anyway?

Besides, single-cabinet speakers often do not meet their, mostly optimistically stated, frequency response in-room. Often set-up in the room that optimizes for other parameters (e.g., soundstage) requires compromise in the bass and bass extension. Subwoofers will help there, again.

Separate sub-woofers also have their own problems i.e. correct musical timing and phasing with the main speakers bass drivers for instance plus additional space required in your listening room at the back or between your speakers.

 

[Folsom]

the O96 is Devore, the other speaker I was mentioning was Joachim Gerhard speakers which I heard at Anamighty sound a few years ago. Very small speakers in a large room, as we auditioned various analog equipment over 2 days, allowed the recordings and the equipment to show through very clearly without colouring them with their own fake artefacts, the kind that sound impressive on the first LP and by the fourth you are like oh no not that same bass and stage again. The recording stage and bass is much more real and impressive than the one imposed by large speakers over the recordings.

audionec evo 2 is also very good for this purpose and works with 20ish watt SETs. Hybrid like Logans but better, and the 400 hz above driver they have is quite transparent

Interesting, I wouldn't have guessed you like Gerhard's stuff. If that's the case a day may come where you like several things we've had our hands in, that aren't even our personal choices.

What gear was associated?

 

[bonzo75]

Interesting, I wouldn't have guessed you like Gerhard's stuff. If that's the case a day may come where you like several things we've had our hands in, that aren't even our personal choices.

What gear was associated?

Thrax hybrid, various analog including thrax phono, their own, the lower model of phasemation (I had highlighted the potential of the DHT phasemation phono back then, never got to hear it till 2022). The new thrax phono is excellent, Audioquattr and I preferred it to the partial silver Thomas Mayer on both vdh and red sparrow. Both D3a valves.

 

[Al M.]

Separate sub-woofers also have their own problems i.e. correct musical timing and phasing with the main speakers bass drivers for instance plus additional space required in your listening room at the back or between your speakers.

Sure, but correct integration can be done (especially if the subwoofers have phase adjustment on a continuous scale, not just 0/180). Just speakers without subwoofers have their own problems too, as I pointed out. Pick your poison, if you will.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Separate sub-woofers also have their own problems i.e. correct musical timing and phasing with the main speakers bass drivers for instance plus additional space required in your listening room at the back or between your speakers.

99 % get it wrong regardless of price .
The only good integration i ve ever heard was quit recently actually at Ultimate audio in Lisbon .
I reckon a large part also comes from the person who sets it up.

 

[Al M.]

99 % get it wrong regardless of price .
The only good integration i ve ever heard was quit recently actually at Ultimate audio in Lisbon .
I reckon a large part also comes from the person who sets it up.

Sure, at shows or at dealers you can't expect much. Proper set-up can take many hours. That also holds for the main speakers themselves. I have found that I shuffled my speakers around after new gear purchases, acoustic changes or power changes to adjust for the overall changes in sound. As for subs, it took me a while until I really understood and was able to dial in the phase of my JL Audios. Doing that, based on many recordings of very different music (orchestral, chamber, rock, jazz, electronica, you name it), takes a good amount of time as well. And if you only have a 0/180 phase option rather than the possibility of continuous adjustment, as is the case with many subwoofers, then you very well may have a problem, in my opinion. I would have had one.

All in all, I have spent countless hours on my speaker set-up, both main speakers and subs. And no, you can't delegate all that hard work to a paid set-up expert who visits for a day or two either. Sure, that person might be of big help, but the final and tedious fine-tuning, according to your own personal tastes and perceptions which only you know and nobody else, will be in your own hands.

Just plonking down a speaker system in your room and hoping for a miracle doesn't cut it. No matter how much money you throw at it.

 

[Lagonda]

Sure, at shows or at dealers you can't expect much. Proper set-up can take many hours. That also holds for the main speakers themselves. I have found that I shuffled my speakers around after new gear purchases, acoustic changes or power changes to adjust for the overall changes in sound. As for subs, it took me a while until I really understood and was able to dial in the phase of my JL Audios. Doing that, based on many recordings of very different music (orchestral, chamber, rock, jazz, electronica, you name it), takes a good amount of time as well. And if you only have a 0/180 phase option rather than the possibility of continuous adjustment, as is the case with many subwoofers, then you very well may have a problem, in my opinion. I would have had one.

All in all, I have spent countless hours on my speaker set-up, both main speakers and subs. And no, you can't delegate all that hard work to a paid set-up expert who visits for a day or two either. Sure, that person might be of big help, but the final and tedious fine-tuning, according to your own personal tastes and perceptions which only you know and nobody else, will be in your own hands.

Just plonking down a speaker system in your room and hoping for a miracle doesn't cut it. No matter how much money you throw at it.

When you have adjusted placement of subwoofers and crossover and found the right positions, you ears have adjusted too. Next day, something that sounded right, is so obviously wrong. I takes me months of changing positions, feet/ spikes, spike cups, room treatment ,cables and surface to find the best combination.

 

[Al M.]

When you have adjusted placement of subwoofers and crossover and found the right positions, you ears have adjusted too. Next day, something that sounded right, is so obviously wrong. I takes me months of changing positions, feet/ spikes, spike cups, room treatment ,cables and surface to find the best combination.

Indeed.

Overall, it took me years to get my set-up sorted out (sure, lots of it was also due to changes in the system and simply learning).

I like my house and hope to retire there (regardless of the fact that my room is somewhat limited in size). I hope I do not have to move. I know if I would have to do it again elsewhere in a new acoustics, it would still take me several months at least to really fine-tune it to my satisfaction. Even with everything I have learned.