In praise of idlers

[Folsom]

Reducing the power seems to have benefits with reduced motor vibration, this is independent of any power grid issues.

Reducing the power seems to have benefits with reduced motor vibration, this is independent of any power grid issues.

Well I did read that in an instance of the Garrard they tried it with a non-power factor dependent device and still had similar results. It would appear KCC needs to make a new model. I do wonder if any other units are affected.

Just not note it's not necessarily fun or easy to adjust for voltage. In these applications it could mean swapping transformers, unless maybe using the Road Runner has adjustable output voltage? The wattage is high pretty high for doing that.

 

[microstrip]

115/230v switchable. I bet they are a small nudge away from being able to add a switch for reducing the power by small increments. That would be useful for tube amplifiers that are vintage.

Just to confirm I'd only use this on single phase motors.

Well , it seems is misses the capability of adjusting the amplitude - I find it mandatory in an add on unit. Even using common mains ( my 230V 50Hz has low distortion) I use a variac to adjust voltage to the optimum value.

 

[Folsom]

Well , it seems is misses the capability of adjusting the amplitude - I find it mandatory in an add on unit. Even using common mains ( my 230V 50Hz has low distortion) I use a variac to adjust voltage to the optimum value.

I get wanting voltage adjustment for a Garrad specifically, but for anything else, a variac? Sounds excessive and annoying in a stereo setup. We use them for testing stuff, sure, but I think something with a little more elegant would be nice for a stereo (even a variac put into a new enclosure to look like an audio appliance would be acceptable).

 

[Folsom]

BTW I just asked KCC and they said they'll do custom voltages for anything anyone wants. For Garrad that's great if you know the voltage you want.

 

[microstrip]

I get wanting voltage adjustment for a Garrad specifically, but for anything else, a variac? Sounds excessive and annoying in a stereo setup. We use them for testing stuff, sure, but I think something with a little more elegant would be nice for a stereo (even a variac put into a new enclosure to look like an audio appliance would be acceptable).

Surely I do not recommend a variac for this specific purpose - I just use it because it is laying around with other duties than testing audio equipment. My point is that something with adjustable voltage is needed to optimize the motor performance and the Athena lacks this capability.

 

[Lagonda]

Well I did read that in an instance of the Garrard they tried it with a non-power factor dependent device and still had similar results. It would appear KCC needs to make a new model. I do wonder if any other units are affected.

Just not note it's not necessarily fun or easy to adjust for voltage. In these applications it could mean swapping transformers, unless maybe using the Road Runner has adjustable output voltage? The wattage is high pretty high for doing that.

RoadRunner Falcon/Eagle can adjust both frequency and voltage, and automatically reduce output during spin-up ( less belt wear) and after cruise speed for lowest vibration noise

 

[Folsom]

RoadRunner Falcon/Eagle can adjust both frequency and voltage, and automatically reduce output during spin-up ( less belt wear) and after cruise speed for lowest vibration noise

I may use it for one table but don’t necessarily value it over one that doesn’t use an amp. (There is a form of feedback, but it isn’t of the TT speed) Amplifier current delivery isn’t always as pleasing as people think. So I wouldn’t go as far as to say I think it’ll be sonically superior. I’d like to test.

 

[Lagonda]

I may use it for one table but don’t necessarily value it over one that doesn’t use an amp. (There is a form of feedback, but it isn’t of the TT speed) Amplifier current delivery isn’t always as pleasing as people think. So I wouldn’t go as far as to say I think it’ll be sonically superior. I’d like to test.

You should test it if you can find one The 5W Falcon is not made anymore, neither ist the 25W Eagle those where the ones that could be used on regular AC motors. The Roadrunner is being sold by SOTA alone or with the Condor made for a specific BLDC motor.
https://sotaturntables.com/product-category/eclipse-series/ I currently use 500W PS Audio with adjustable 110V-125V and 50Hz-120 Hz output on my Studer motor project. This is not as finely adjustable as the Phoenix Engineering systems, but a good way to gouge motor potential. DDK has graciously offered to send me the system made for his AS 2000 TT

 

[Folsom]

Well if your motor is two pole no single output is going to be a big upgrade. In which case I’ll get a KCC to my voltage spec for single pole.

I’ll build my own Roadrunner setup for dual pole. The SOTA is low voltage and the motors on my tables are designed for 115v~. You use an amplifier and transformers to get the voltage back up from the 5v max of Roadrunner.

 

[Lagonda]

Well if your motor is two pole no single output is going to be a big upgrade. In which case I’ll get a KCC to my voltage spec for single pole.

I’ll build my own Roadrunner setup for dual pole. The SOTA is low voltage and the motors on my tables are designed for 115v~. You use an amplifier and transformers to get the voltage back up from the 5v max of Roadrunner.

Roadrunner is not a power supply and has no output, it’s a tach that will send Feedback signal to the power supply digitally, Condors (the power supply part)motor management is specific for the BLDC motor.

 

[Folsom]

Roadrunner is not a power supply and has no output, it’s a tach that will send Feedback signal to the power supply digitally, Condors (the power supply part)motor management is specific for the BLDC motor.

Blahs. You can get PCB’s to make what I talked about. Call it whatever you like.

 

[Lagonda]

Blahs. You can get PCB’s to make what I talked about. Call it whatever you like.

As usual you comment on design functionality and effects of equipment you obviously have zero experience with

 

[Folsom]

As usual you comment on design functionality and effects of equipment you obviously have zero experience with

This is what I will use for multipole. So what if I mixed up the names? It's not exactly hard to get confused with some audio products when you make a point to research as much as possible on pretty much everything. It seems like I discover a new brand every day, kind of insane.

Not sure where you're attitude is coming from, but think what you want I guess...

 

[Lagonda]

This is what I will use for multipole. So what if I mixed up the names? It's not exactly hard to get confused with some audio products when you make a point to research as much as possible on pretty much everything. It seems like I discover a new brand every day, kind of insane.

Not sure where you're attitude is coming from, but think what you want I guess...

The other day you questioned the validity and function Of the Roadrunner in the thread where the designer was graciously helping out, and today it becomes obvious that you have no hands on experience with these products at all, just a future plan of maybe on day making something. By the way the page/design you linked to has been created by Bill Carlin, the designer who’s product you just criticized I don’t know Folsom where is my attitude coming from

 

[Folsom]

I'm interested in it because it puts out a constant frequency with more accurate power than what one may get from their wall; particularly depending on the poor performance of phase shifting capacitor (done enough testing with those to know there is no satisfactory value ever). I do not partake interest in trying to "dial in" speed based on one revolution clocking. I have found no conclusive data of the value of it beyond what a strobe can do. Why? Because of speed stability measurements and pitch (pitch you hear very easily, overall speed must change significantly to hear). Here you go, some light reading. On the other hand Folsom has been investigative towards motor types for some time now (measure and research). We also measure, design, model, and make discrete circuits. We have looked into circuits that we can make to track speed at very high precision but conclusion is no one serious likes the type of sound. Truth is turntable speed is similar to subwoofers... The control you can exert electrically is limited before it causes as much of a problem or more that you're trying to correct. Lower frequency anything exhibits that tendency. (example Herzan tables have worse performance under 1hz, but better above compared to control examples)

On subjective note turntables with simple engineer design for specific frequency with AC motors have been my favorite sound to date. I've heard plenty of nice DD's, but wouldn't call them "best".

 

[Lagonda]

I'm interested in it because it puts out a constant frequency with more accurate power than what one may get from their wall; particularly depending on the poor performance of phase shifting capacitor (done enough testing with those to know there is no satisfactory value ever). I do not partake interest in trying to "dial in" speed based on one revolution clocking. I have found no conclusive data of the value of it beyond what a strobe can do. Why? Because of speed stability measurements and pitch (pitch you hear very easily, overall speed must change significantly to hear). Here you go, some light reading. On the other hand Folsom has been investigative towards motor types for some time now (measure and research). We also measure, design, model, and make discrete circuits. We have looked into circuits that we can make to track speed at very high precision but conclusion is no one serious likes the type of sound. Truth is turntable speed is similar to subwoofers... The control you can exert electrically is limited before it causes as much of a problem or more that you're trying to correct. Lower frequency anything exhibits that tendency. (example Herzan tables have worse performance under 1hz, but better above compared to control examples)

On subjective note turntables with simple engineer design for specific frequency with AC motors have been my favorite sound to date. I've heard plenty of nice DD's, but wouldn't call them "best".

And the hundreds of users, me included, are imagining things when we hear improvement ! And every TT designer that puts money and effort into making perfect power and controllers are wasting their time. Let’s talk again when you have actually tried these products, not just read about them

 

[Folsom]

And the hundreds of users, me included, are imagining things when we hear improvement ! And every TT designer that puts money and effort into making perfect power and controllers are wasting their time. Let’s talk again when you have actually tried these products, not just read about them

None of that makes any sense. I say I want perfect power delivery and you say it's a waste a time according to me.... mMM right.

 

[Vienna]

It’s strange (if not funny) for someone to express opinion on equipment that has zero experience with.

And the hundreds of users, me included, are imagining things when we hear improvement ! And every TT designer that puts money and effort into making perfect power and controllers are wasting their time. Let’s talk again when you have actually tried these products, not just read about them

+1

 

[microstrip]

And the hundreds of users, me included, are imagining things when we hear improvement ! And every TT designer that puts money and effort into making perfect power and controllers are wasting their time.(...)

Surely not. But they are just rediscovering the wheel to feed our interest in small differences.
IMHO they do not look for the perfect controller, just the pleasant one. The perfect one is too easy to design.

 

[Folsom]

It’s strange (if not funny) for someone to express opinion on equipment that has zero experience with.

+1

If you think that is strange, then I will say from the engineering side we think people that run before walking, and that tell us about their theories on engineering are much stranger.

While I ultimately will often use other's products for different things, inexperience with them isn't always inexperience with equivalents. We have various power supplies, ways to generate signals, etc. But no desire to leave a stereo in lab hooked up like Frankenstein. Just like I said to Microstrip, I think it's a bit silly to use variac for stereo, but we use variac all the time for testing. So that's why I'm interested in other makers' stuff. There is only so much time in the day, and we've got enough R&D backslated that could use more time of day between other things as is. We find no need to reinvent anything with turntable motors yet.

Lagonda is confusing things. The only argument he has is that he believes ultimate speed is an appreciable factor. I'm saying I cannot find anything to substantiate that, only the type of power delivery with the intended engineered speed. For whatever reason he goes on to say I think it's all fooey when I am saying exact opposite as conclusion of playing with motors, collective research, and personal experience listening.