In praise of idlers

[Lagonda]

If you think that is strange, then I will say from the engineering side we think people that run before walking, and that tell us about their theories on engineering are much stranger.

While I ultimately will often use other's products for different things, inexperience with them isn't always inexperience with equivalents. We have various power supplies, ways to generate signals, etc. But no desire to leave a stereo in lab hooked up like Frankenstein. Just like I said to Microstrip, I think it's a bit silly to use variac for stereo, but we use variac all the time for testing. So that's why I'm interested in other makers' stuff. There is only so much time in the day, and we've got enough R&D backslated that could use more time of day between other things as is. We find no need to reinvent anything with turntable motors yet.

Lagonda is confusing things. The only argument he has is that he believes ultimate speed is an appreciable factor. I'm saying I cannot find anything to substantiate that, only the type of power delivery with the intended engineered speed. For whatever reason he goes on to say I think it's all fooey when I am saying exact opposite as conclusion of playing with motors, collective research, and personal experience listening.

Folsom, a couple of days ago you where commenting on the potential inaccuracies of the Roadrunner, with some silly unrealistic example. And got schooled by the designer In this thread you said:

„Just not note it's not necessarily fun or easy to adjust for voltage. In these applications it could mean swapping transformers, unless maybe using the Road Runner has adjustable output voltage? The wattage is high pretty high for doing that.“

Showing a misunderstanding of what the Roadrunner does, you where alluding to the accompanying power supply of course, honest mistake
Then you presented this little beauty of an argument:

“ Truth is turntable speed is similar to subwoofers... The control you can exert electrically is limited before it causes as much of a problem or more that you're trying to correct.“

I’m leaving the subwoofer part alone for today. You assume that because you have not been successful at this endeavor, Phoenix Engineering has not managed the task either ? A lot of us think he has, and has made some wonderful products that improve speed stability, and sound reproduction even when used with a simple Hurst AC motor. I will again suggest that you actually try out products before you dismiss their capability

 

[microstrip]

It’s strange (if not funny) for someone to express opinion on equipment that has zero experience with.

Independently of thread and context, any one if free to express technical (objective) opinion on any equipment, even without experience on it. Most of the time the problem is that manufacturers do not want to supply the complete or accurate information, and we must guess from their rough terminology or incomplete specifications.

BTW, mechanically and electrically turntable motors are not perfect. In order to get a perfect movement we must supply them with not perfect electrical signals. Depending on the interpretation of what is meant by "perfect" the sentence can be false or true!

Please note that I am not addressing any specific products or manufactures with my words, just a general comment on freedom of technical audio debates.

 

[Folsom]

Folsom, a couple of days ago you where commenting on the potential inaccuracies of the Roadrunner, with some silly unrealistic example. And got schooled by the designer In this thread you said:

„Just not note it's not necessarily fun or easy to adjust for voltage. In these applications it could mean swapping transformers, unless maybe using the Road Runner has adjustable output voltage? The wattage is high pretty high for doing that.“

Showing a misunderstanding of what the Roadrunner does, you where alluding to the accompanying power supply of course, honest mistake
Then you presented this little beauty of an argument:

“ Truth is turntable speed is similar to subwoofers... The control you can exert electrically is limited before it causes as much of a problem or more that you're trying to correct.“

I’m leaving the subwoofer part alone for today. You assume that because you have not been successful at this endeavor, Phoenix Engineering has not managed the task either ? A lot of us think he has, and has made some wonderful products that improve speed stability, and sound reproduction even when used with a simple Hurst AC motor. I will again suggest that you actually try out products before you dismiss their capability

Yes I mixed up names. So? I know what all the stuff does, names are trivial. And FYI I sent a PM to him not knowing his boards were the ones on DIY - that I've had the thread saved for, for 4 years - and got a reply "You can find all the answers in the OP at the link I provided." No names included with that or when you say "AS2000 controller". No surprise, trivial to the whole point.

There was no schooling. My example was extreme but the point is valid. It's not my issue if someone is overly literal on a subject.

The subwoofer part is as true as the reality you know. Irrefutable. Why do you think lots of turntable makers are interested in low torque motors for spinning? It's because high torque will overshoot very easily, also called cogging. When feedback for a motor is used and it tries to increase the speed it has to be gentle or you have that problem. The problem is same for subwoofer as if it is not dampened well from mechanical means when you try to stop the over-throw too strongly it just develops the opposite problem. The reason subwoofers are not dampened really well all the time is because the more damping the more limited their lower frequency range happens to be. The only way to get around that while keeping damping is to increase physical size of the subwoofer. So let's ask ourselves if there is a coincidence going on here... DDK likes no feedback turntables and prefers higher damped bass drivers like JBL.

You are suggesting that a no feedback system tackled getting accurate speed by using feedback ala Phoenix Engineering? I'm sorry Lagonda but it's you who does not understand. That is insane. I believe you're much smarter than that statement "Phoenix Engineering has not managed the task either ?" would make one think. I'm sure once you think about it you realize why it makes no sense. To answer it more directly no and no. No I don't think Phoenix Engineering managed the task because Phoenix Engineering has explicitly said he does not use feedback for all of the controllers we're talking about. He uses a tachometer, sets it, forgets it. You should know, you do that every time you listen to album.

I'm not dismissing any capability BTW. That statement is inapplicable.

 

[Lagonda]

Yes I mixed up names. So? I know what all the stuff does, names are trivial. And FYI I sent a PM to him not knowing his boards were the ones on DIY - that I've had the thread saved for, for 4 years - and got a reply "You can find all the answers in the OP at the link I provided." No names included with that or when you say "AS2000 controller". No surprise, trivial to the whole point.

There was no schooling. My example was extreme but the point is valid. It's not my issue if someone is overly literal on a subject.

The subwoofer part is as true as the reality you know. Irrefutable. Why do you think lots of turntable makers are interested in low torque motors for spinning? It's because high torque will overshoot very easily, also called cogging. When feedback for a motor is used and it tries to increase the speed it has to be gentle or you have that problem. The problem is same for subwoofer as if it is not dampened well from mechanical means when you try to stop the over-throw too strongly it just develops the opposite problem. The reason subwoofers are not dampened really well all the time is because the more damping the more limited their lower frequency range happens to be. The only way to get around that while keeping damping is to increase physical size of the subwoofer. So let's ask ourselves if there is a coincidence going on here... DDK likes no feedback turntables and prefers higher damped bass drivers like JBL.

You are suggesting that a no feedback system tackled getting accurate speed by using feedback ala Phoenix Engineering? I'm sorry Lagonda but it's you who does not understand. That is insane. I believe you're much smarter than that statement "Phoenix Engineering has not managed the task either ?" would make one think. I'm sure once you think about it you realize why it makes no sense. To answer it more directly no and no. No I don't think Phoenix Engineering managed the task because Phoenix Engineering has explicitly said he does not use feedback for all of the controllers we're talking about. He uses a tachometer, sets it, forgets it. You should know, you do that every time you listen to album.

I'm not dismissing any capability BTW. That statement is inapplicable.

Please quote me to where i have ever said i like continuous feedback for any TT ! What the Phoenix system does well is creating a sine-wave specifically tailored to your needs, you as a user can set your voltage and frequency to a very precise point or let the feedback do it for you, it ramps up output slowly on startup and lower voltage to a point set by the user after reaching cruising speed. Some motors are very sensitive to both voltage and frequency, and a steady supply is not given from the mains. When my Studer motor is connected directly to the mains, it drops 2rpm when the air compressor starts in the attic, this voltage fluctuation is buffered by the PS Audio or a Phoenix system even when there is no feedback connected. You can certainly enjoy the music even if the speed is substantially of, but having the right speed when it is done correctly does not hurt either

 

[Folsom]

Please quote me to where i have ever said i like continuous feedback for any TT ! What the Phoenix system does well is creating a sine-wave specifically tailored to your needs, you as a user can set your voltage and frequency to a very precise point or let the feedback do it for you, it ramps up output slowly on startup and lower voltage to a point set by the user after reaching cruising speed. Some motors are very sensitive to both voltage and frequency, and a steady supply is not given from the mains. When my Studer motor is connected directly to the mains, it drops 2rpm when the air compressor starts in the attic, this voltage fluctuation is buffered by the PS Audio or a Phoenix system even when there is no feedback connected. You can certainly enjoy the music even if the speed is substantially of, but having the right speed when it is done correctly does not hurt either

You're not making any sense, just repeating mixed stuff that has been said by everyone. Why would I quote you on something I never said you said?

And that "specific sign wave" is just a frequency. It's whatever frequency you need for the speed you want. It's not more specific than that. Voltage won't change speed unless it's to low to make the motor properly turn, that is on AC motor.

I think Studer motors are DC so voltage sag means lower speed. So yes it makes perfect sense that using devices that maintain voltage will stop changes in RPM. There is no magic, nothing is special for doing so without feedback. It's as simple as it gets.

 

[Lagonda]

You're not making any sense, just repeating mixed stuff that has been said by everyone. Why would I quote you on something I never said you said?

And that "specific sign wave" is just a frequency. It's whatever frequency you need for the speed you want. It's not more specific than that. Voltage won't change speed unless it's to low to make the motor properly turn, that is on AC motor.

I think Studer motors are DC so voltage sag means lower speed. So yes it makes perfect sense that using devices that maintain voltage will stop changes in RPM. There is no magic, nothing is special for doing so without feedback. It's as simple as it gets.

Yes Folsom i am running a DC motor of the mains and with a AC regenerater Being able to set the frequency in very fine increments and setting the voltage where the motor runs best, are two of the advantages of the Phoenix systems. Time for you to do some more googling

 

[Folsom]

Yes Folsom i am running a DC motor of the mains and with a AC regenerater Being able to set the frequency in very fine increments and setting the voltage where the motor runs best, are two of the advantages of the Phoenix systems. Time for you to do some more googling

Your compressor turning on causes a voltage drop. Only DC motors slow down because of voltage drop unless it's extremely severe. The Garrard motors can be dropped what, at least 40v with no effect? Your compressors won't drop it that much. An AC regenerator keeps voltage stable, but so does any other device used as a power supply for motors. One would simply assume it's DC because of this, and if you Google Studer motor you get DC results, that's what the A820 uses... but you don't have your Studer listed anywhere so one can't confirm your model so it seems natural to pick a preferred model by audiophiles. I made the most logical conclusion possible, that only requires the step to be made that Phoenix systems could make a DC controller as well as AC... That would seem pretty standard for someone into making controllers.

You even say the voltage fluctuation is buffered, so that the RPM doesn't drop. Again voltage doesn't control RPM on AC motors, frequency does. An AC motor basically stops turning with insufficient AC (but might get hot before it does). The speed up until then is based on frequency.

You sir are the one not making any sense.

 

[Lagonda]

Your compressor turning on causes a voltage drop. Only DC motors slow down because of voltage drop unless it's extremely severe. The Garrard motors can be dropped what, at least 40v with no effect? Your compressors won't drop it that much. An AC regenerator keeps voltage stable, but so does any other device used as a power supply for motors. One would simply assume it's DC because of this, and if you Google Studer motor you get DC results, that's what the A820 uses... but you don't have your Studer listed anywhere so one can't confirm your model so it seems natural to pick a preferred model by audiophiles. I made the most logical conclusion possible, that only requires the step to be made that Phoenix systems could make a DC controller as well as AC... That would seem pretty standard for someone into making controllers.

You even say the voltage fluctuation is buffered, so that the RPM doesn't drop. Again voltage doesn't control RPM on AC motors, frequency does. An AC motor basically stops turning with insufficient AC (but might get hot before it does). The speed up until then is based on frequency.

You sir are the one not making any sense.

There are all kind of AC motors, some are voltage sensitive Back to your google duty’s

 

[Folsom]

Your image literally says exact frequency = exact speed in the first sentence.

Thank you for reinforcing my point!

 

[Lagonda]

Your image literally says exact frequency = exact speed in the first sentence.

Thank you for reinforcing my point!

This is going to be my last post tonight Folsom you have worn me out, it’s Sunday 2 AM here, and i need a beer I have a AC motor that is sensitive to voltage change, deal with it ! I have adjustable voltage, and turning down the voltage lowers the rpm according to my Roadrunner, turning voltage up increases the rpm too Goodnight !

 

[Folsom]

This is going to be my last post tonight Folsom you have worn me out, it’s Sunday 2 AM here, and i need a beer I have a AC motor that is sensitive to voltage change, deal with it ! I have adjustable voltage, and turning down the voltage lowers the rpm according to my Roadrunner, turning voltage up increases the rpm too Goodnight !

Silly me. I thought you had several beers already!

Sleep tight.

 

[jespera]

A defining moment in high fidelity for me:

I picked up the hifi bug again about 7 years ago. One of the things I invested in was a pierre lurne audio meca j1
with mørch dp6 and koetsu black. It looked close enough to the goldmunds that used to be praised in the
magazines and that I had briefly listened to in a hifi temple in the mid 80s. So I figured it was worth a try.

Shortly after, out of curiosity, I bought (for little silver) my first lenco, a stock L75 with as212 arm and audio
technica cartridge. I was surprised to find that I was soon preferring to play my records on the lenco.

One day I had two friends over: one part-time audiophile and one not even remotely interested. The part-timer
and I played a few tracks on the J1 and the L75, while our not-interested friend checked his phone or something.
The part-timer and I quietly agreed that we thought the L75 had a lot going for it.

We packed up and on the way out the door, the not-interested said with his gallic accent: "... I actually preferred the little one ...".

From then on, it has pretty much been idlers-only in this household.

The J1 got sold to a psychotherapist in Aarhus. Surprisingly and atypically, I more than recouped my investment.

The J1 may be (maybe) ahead on all the hifi disciplines (details, 3d perspective, air, room, ...) but, more importantly
for these ears, it is rhythmically sloppy and outright musically uninvolving. Whereas the lenco is the opposite.

The engineering of the J1 is suitably impressive but imho bonkers and amateurish. Judge for yourself:

https://www.stereophile.com/interviews/pierre_lurne_audiomecas_turntable_designer/index.html

Prof Lurne must be chief scientist of a ufo society or something.

Jesper

 

[McDee275]

Sorry, but I had to reanimate this thread as I believe the idler-driven player need a platform here at the forum if we talk about what's best.


I changed from a belt-driven Thorens TD125 MkII to a idler-driven Lenco L75 including the PTP6 update from Peter Reinders.

I am happy I took the chance to change to the Lenco. The sound the L75 reproduce, is much more direct as by the Thorens.

The L75/PTP6 is a great piece of machinery and by most people totally underestimated. The player is, as you see, very solid built and for sure there is no rumble as some people like to tell you. If you keep an eye on the idler wheel and replace the original one with a new one of good quality, you will not have problems for a long time.

 

[chet atkins]

Jean Nantais reference Lenco

 

[jespera]

I like lencos. And other idlers.

McDee: whats the plinth for your ptp?

Chet Atkins: pls tell us about the funny looking arm. And carts.

My own ptp with L70/denon 103 and 3012r/shure m3d. I use a tenuto copper mat. Ive got two more active lencos and several spares in the house.

 

[chet atkins]

I like lencos. And other idlers.

McDee: whats the plinth for your ptp?

Chet Atkins: pls tell us about the funny looking arm. And carts.

My own ptp with L70/denon 103 and 3012r/shure m3d. I use a tenuto copper mat. Ive got two more active lencos and several spares in the house.

View attachment 95054

Teddy Charles Quartet 10" Prestige on my Lenco RS Labs - YouTube its an RS Labs tonearm...here is somebody,s vid on on youtube

 

[McDee275]

I like lencos. And other idlers.

McDee: whats the plinth for your ptp?

Chet Atkins: pls tell us about the funny looking arm. And carts.

My own ptp with L70/denon 103 and 3012r/shure m3d. I use a tenuto copper mat. Ive got two more active lencos and several spares in the house.

View attachment 95054

Plinth has been made by Ebel-Holztechnik/Germany

 

[jespera]

I saw this post #33 on another forum:

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=32958.30

Looks like something i need.

Anyone here with experience with these big bad stick shifts?

 

[Folsom]

I saw this post #33 on another forum:

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=32958.30

Looks like something i need.

Anyone here with experience with these big bad stick shifts?

I'm with you. They are however not the best performers.

 

[jespera]

I'm with you. They are however not the best performers.

In what way? Rumble?