In praise of idlers

[Folsom]

In what way? Rumble?

Ya, they're a bit noisy. They just wanted them to play forever as the primary focus. A lot of them have really large motors, and sometimes on long shafts. I wouldn't say don't get one, just don't be surprised if the weight doesn't improve performance at all.

 

[davidavdavid]

Idler, hmm. I've been called a "Lazy SOB" plenty of times, but an idler, nah, that would be just too damned polite of any one to say.of me

 

[Don_Camillo]

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=32958.30

Looks like something i need.

Anyone here with experience with these big bad stick shifts?

Yes, I do own a Garrard 401, an EMT 930 as well as a Russco/QRK 12C and two Lenco L75.

So I can also assess quite well what each of these fidlers can really do and why all these prejudices, any idler would inevitably rumble and that would disturb the playback, are just wrong. Most of these are made because the idler that was auditioned unfortunately was not maintained at all or was improperly maintained. A properly maintained motor unit is always perfectly quiet.

 

[Don_Camillo]

In what way? Rumble?

Sorry, but a properly maintained motor unit is always perfectly quiet.

 

[McDee275]

I am still suprised how these prejudices are stucked in peoples heads, idler always rumble. But for a long time in my life, i was thinking the same.

Luckily I went through plenty of comments at the Lenco Heaven forum so I could learn a bit before buying one.

I made a function test of my Lenco/PTP6 at the previous owners place and I was very surprised how soundless and quiet these idlers can run.

Directly after the Lenco was completd at my place, it started to rumble.
Reason: his stupid new owner forgot to loosen the motors transport screws before starting.

Lesson learned!

Key issues for a silently running idler are imhO maintenace well done and a not too stupid owner.

Cheers

 

[spiritofmusic]

Haha, some of the most (apparently) intelligent people are also the most stupid. I don't excuse myself from this.

 

[Don_Camillo]

Directly after the Lenco was completd at my place, it started to rumble.
Reason: his stupid new owner forgot to loosen the motors transport screws before starting.

Hi Volker,
yes, transport screws still screwed in is one issue that can cause an idler drive turntable to rumble, motor noise, a hardend rubber on the idler wheel, the platter bearing itself or even a missalignment of the idler wheel can cause this too.

However, there are so many story tales in peoples head. When it comes to vintage turntables some are permanently reporting their turntable would have been services and is on spec. Anyways if the correct speed isn´t met in a few seconds something is wrong and the turntable anything but not serviced correctly nor in spec.

 

[jespera]

Yes, I do own a Garrard 401, an EMT 930 as well as a Russco/QRK 12C and two Lenco L75.

So I can also assess quite well what each of these fidlers can really do and why all these prejudices, any idler would inevitably rumble and that would disturb the playback, are just wrong. Most of these are made because the idler that was auditioned unfortunately was not maintained at all or was improperly maintained. A properly maintained motor unit is always perfectly quiet.

Personally, I have never had any trouble with rumble or noise with my garrard and lencos. So yes, suspected that much of the chat about rumbling idlers was myth and poor maintenance.

How does the russco compare to your other turntables soundwise?

 

[Don_Camillo]

How does the russco compare to your other turntables soundwise?

Because this is dependend on what plinth with what materials you´re building, what tonearm you are pairing, this is not that easy to answer.

Furthermore it depends on what exact model you got. The Russco/ QRK wre made with three different motors (Ashland/ Bondine , later changed to Nidec and at the end they took capstan motors of TEAC reel2reel machines). Each of them applies a different amount of torque to the idler and platter what´s changing its capabilities to handle spatiality, rhythm and overall resolution too.

Sourcing of the three motor mounts and a refurbished or new idler is not that easy. I´ve ordered for both a couple of sets and were disapointed. Two sets of the motor mounts were stored for too long and already hardened and slightly brittle. One idler I´ve got delivered had the wrong diameter. Actually there are no more spare parts. Everything you need besides those motor grommets and the idler you´ve to get specifically made or adapted.

But the bottom line is that you have to invest a lot in a Lenco L75 so that it even comes close to a Russco. Nothing goes in the right direction without replacing the platter bearing. A Garrad 401 plays a bit finer, the Russco a bit more down-to-earth but not worse. But nobody comes close to the calm and serenity of an EMT 930.

When it comes to flexibility and handling I´d rather go for a Russco Cue Master because of its detachable armboard.

 

[jespera]

Because this is dependend on what plinth with what materials you´re building, what tonearm you are pairing, this is not that easy to answer.

Furthermore it depends on what exact model you got. The Russco/ QRK wre made with three different motors (Ashland/ Bondine , later changed to Nidec and at the end they took capstan motors of TEAC reel2reel machines). Each of them applies a different amount of torque to the idler and platter what´s changing its capabilities to handle spatiality, rhythm and overall resolution too.

Sourcing of the three motor mounts and a refurbished or new idler is not that easy. I´ve ordered for both a couple of sets and were disapointed. Two sets of the motor mounts were stored for too long and already hardened and slightly brittle. One idler I´ve got delivered had the wrong diameter. Actually there are no more spare parts. Everything you need besides those motor grommets and the idler you´ve to get specifically made or adapted.

But the bottom line is that you have to invest a lot in a Lenco L75 so that it even comes close to a Russco. Nothing goes in the right direction without replacing the platter bearing. A Garrad 401 plays a bit finer, the Russco a bit more down-to-earth but not worse. But nobody comes close to the calm and serenity of an EMT 930.

When it comes to flexibility and handling I´d rather go for a Russco Cue Master because of its detachable armboard.

Thanks for that.

Any experience or opinion on the other stick shifts (rek-o-kut, gates) and how they compare?

Too dependent on the particular model to generalise .. ?

 

[Don_Camillo]

Any experience or opinion on the other stick shifts (rek-o-kut, gates) and how they compare?

Too dependent on the particular model to generalise .. ?

Yes and no
To be honest, I am very often surprised that supposedly quality-conscious hi-fi freaks keep lumping consumer devices with professional radio equipment together, stir them twice and then want to get an overall and generally valid quality statement

Rek o Kut was pro gear until the end of the 40th (e.g. CSV-16, CSV-12) After that it was mainly addressed to consumers and might compete with Thorens, Lenco and DUAL.

Gates, on the other hand, is pro gear with a quality standard that´s similar to Russco/ QRK and all the others that are directly linked to broadcasting industry.

In principle, I´m not a friend of those ranking discussions because it turns out to be quite individual but asking me for my personal ranking list about idler turntables it would start with

1. EMT 927
2. Commonwealth
3. EMT 930
4 a. Garrard 301/ 401/ 501
4 b. Gates CB-77

- between 4th and 5th place lies a quite visible gap -

5. Russco Cue Master/ QRK 12c

- between 5th and 6th place lies a even greater gap -

6. Rek o Kut LP-743 - it´s on the list because with mono some aspects do not count that much
7. Rek o Kut 12H/ Rondine

- between 7th and 8th place lies a hughe gap -

8. Lenco L75 PTP or modified with platter bearing changed
9. ELAC Miracord 50H

- between 9th and 10th place lies again a closer gap -

10 a. DUAL 1219
10 b. Lenco L75 in original state

And to be very nice, there are still a few vintage idlers from Japan that I've only been able to get a glimpse of so far, but they did their job quite promisingly and could make at least one DUAL 1219 or tuned Lenco L75 look pretty old.

 

[jespera]

Yes and no
To be honest, I am very often surprised that supposedly quality-conscious hi-fi freaks keep lumping consumer devices with professional radio equipment together, stir them twice and then want to get an overall and generally valid quality statement

Rek o Kut was pro gear until the end of the 40th (e.g. CSV-16, CSV-12) After that it was mainly addressed to consumers and might compete with Thorens, Lenco and DUAL.

Gates, on the other hand, is pro gear with a quality standard that´s similar to Russco/ QRK and all the others that are directly linked to broadcasting industry.

In principle, I´m not a friend of those ranking discussions because it turns out to be quite individual but asking me for my personal ranking list about idler turntables it would start with

1. EMT 927
2. Commonwealth
3. EMT 930
4 a. Garrard 301/ 401/ 501
4 b. Gates CB-77

- between 4th and 5th place lies a quite visible gap -

5. Russco Cue Master/ QRK 12c

- between 5th and 6th place lies a even greater gap -

6. Rek o Kut LP-743 - it´s on the list because with mono some aspects do not count that much
7. Rek o Kut 12H/ Rondine

- between 7th and 8th place lies a hughe gap -

8. Lenco L75 PTP or modified with platter bearing changed
9. ELAC Miracord 50H

- between 9th and 10th place lies again a closer gap -

10 a. DUAL 1219
10 b. Lenco L75 in original state

And to be very nice, there are still a few vintage idlers from Japan that I've only been able to get a glimpse of so far, but they did their job quite promisingly and could make at least one DUAL 1219 or tuned Lenco L75 look pretty old.

Oh now its getting interesting.

I dont see the td124 on your list …

Or the L70.

 

[Don_Camillo]

Oh now its getting interesting.

I dont see the td124 on your list …

Or the L70.

Sorry, but I didn´t get hands on a L70 so far. To be honest, I don't have the time to do so because I would probably turn my interest to the Japanese idlers instead. In addition, from a technical perspective, the difference between L70 and L75 will not be any different than between ELAC 13H and 50H or Dual 1218 and 1219 and beeing something like a sidestep to an all original L75 what might put it on No. 10c.

I had a TD-124 but only kept the TD-121. However, neither of these are purebred idlers, but have a combination drive consisting of a belt and an idler. You can hear that too and it doesn't appeal to me as much as the hype about it is widespread. But if you really want to include it in my individual list I would rank it at No. 9b.

 

[godofwealth]

My restored Garrard 301 absolutely blows away my two other turntables, a direct drive Technics SP 10 Mk2 and an SME 20/12 with an SME V12 arm. The SME sounds sluggish and a bit bloated on the bottom. The SP-10 sounds a lot snapper, but brighter and leaner. The 301 has that idler bounce and drive the others can’t quite match. My 0.02 cents.

 

[Tlay]

My restored Garrard 301 absolutely blows away my two other turntables, a direct drive Technics SP 10 Mk2 and an SME 20/12 with an SME V12 arm. The SME sounds sluggish and a bit bloated on the bottom. The SP-10 sounds a lot snapper, but brighter and leaner. The 301 has that idler bounce and drive the others can’t quite match. My 0.02 cents.

View attachment 95205

Who made your plinth? I have a refurbished Garrard that has been sitting unused in my closet for three years. I’d love to get it up and running but as I’ve got a nice PTP Lenco with Schroder arm I haven’t been in a hurry nor do I want to buy a plinth costing multiple thousands. Yours looks nice.

 

[jespera]

Sorry, but I didn´t get hands on a L70 so far. To be honest, I don't have the time to do so because I would probably turn my interest to the Japanese idlers instead. In addition, from a technical perspective, the difference between L70 and L75 will not be any different than between ELAC 13H and 50H or Dual 1218 and 1219 and beeing something like a sidestep to an all original L75 what might put it on No. 10c.

I had a TD-124 but only kept the TD-121. However, neither of these are purebred idlers, but have a combination drive consisting of a belt and an idler. You can hear that too and it doesn't appeal to me as much as the hype about it is widespread. But if you really want to include it in my individual list I would rank it at No. 9b.

View attachment 95203

I dont have have enough meaningful exposure to emt’s, dual’s and (not at all) the american monsters to argue with your rankings.

In a strict hifi scoring way youre right, the garrards are better than the lencos. Particularly for the unmodded lencos. But as you start pimping the lencos they get very close. And regardless of hifi scores i just really like the way that the lencos keep the beat. Particularly for marley and motown.

The td124 is not a pure idler. It sounds lovely though. Very nice musical flow but not quite the metronomic beat of the two others.

Instead of discussing absolute rankings, here is my ranking in the order of what i actually _use_ the most:

1-2/ hammertone garrard 301/bokrand/spu in cherry plint,

1-2/ ptp lenco L75/l70 arm/denon dl 103 in corian plinth, ptp bearing,

3/ L70/denon dl 103, lencomotion bearing,

4/ L70/shure sc35c/n35x

5/ td124/3012/denon dl 103

1-3 and 5 use a sandwich of cork and metal platters.

So a tie at the top. I generally use the ptp lenco for pop/rock/soul and the garrard for jazz.

The L70 has a thicker top plate than the L75. It also has a much better arm. Its great with robust cartridges such as the denon 103 and classic mm’s. Bbc used to use it with their garrards.

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=12192.0

 

[godofwealth]

Who made your plinth? I have a refurbished Garrard that has been sitting unused in my closet for three years. I’d love to get it up and running but as I’ve got a nice PTP Lenco with Schroder arm I haven’t been in a hurry nor do I want to buy a plinth costing multiple thousands. Yours looks nice.

My plinth came from Hungary. I think it cost around $800 plus shipping. Takes a few weeks. Check out this eBay listing.

Piano Palisander Garrard 301 Two Tonearm 9"+12" Plinth (without turntable) | eBay

The PIANO PALISANDER HQ BIRCH PLYWOOD Plinth for the GARRARD 301, TWO TONEARM VERSION WITH 2 BLANK ARMBOARD, RIGHT SIDE THE 12", LEFT SIDE THE 9".

www.ebay.com

 

[Don_Camillo]

My restored Garrard 301 absolutely blows away my two other turntables, a direct drive Technics SP 10 Mk2 and an SME 20/12 with an SME V12 arm. The SME sounds sluggish and a bit bloated on the bottom. The SP-10 sounds a lot snapper, but brighter and leaner. The 301 has that idler bounce and drive the others can’t quite match. My 0.02 cents.

View attachment 95205

May I ask for a proper description of the Technics and SME setups (plinth, tonearm, cartridge), the SUT, the phono stage and other settings please?

Idler bounce and drive? Yeah, those laminated birch plywood plinths make a nice euphonic sound. I´ve went that road too but actually all idlers are stored and the direct drives make the music

 

[Don_Camillo]

I generally use the ptp lenco for pop/rock/soul and the garrard for jazz.

Hmm, just for a better understanding. Do you care about linear frequency respond when it comes to cartridge loading?

 

[godofwealth]

Phono stage is an ARC Ref Phono 3SE. Arms are all 12” SME (V12, 312S) except on the Technics, where I use the 10” EPA 100. Cartridges vary, from a Koetsu Blue Onyx Platinum to a mono Miyajima Infinity Zero to the classic Shure vMR.

Don’t get me wrong. The Garrard is definitely a nostalgia trip. It sometimes takes a gentle push to get the platter moving (I use a VPI SDS synchro drive with the Garrard to reduce platter vibration by controlling input voltage). The Technics SP-10 in contrast comes to speed almost instantly. But it’s servo controlled. If you use one of the iPhone apps like RPM to check for speed stability, you notice a lot of sharp speed adjustments. The Garrard is far smoother, even if its wow/flutter is higher.

The Garrard idler drive is a masterpiece of design. Turn over a 301 and look at the design and the motor size. Now look at the SME 20/12 motor in comparison. It’s a joke — a wimpy little thing compared to the Garrard. Belt drives, no matter how much they cost, and some can cost over 100 grand these days, are all subject to the intrinsic problems of controlling s heavy platter with this squishy belt, and they use servos to compensate for the bad design (not to mention his slow they are to reach speed stability). Direct drives are far better in quickly reaching speed stability, but the direct drive servos now are coupled directly to the platter. The Garrard idler looks to me a better design. It’s more expensive to design. I’m not surprised most manufacturers went the cheaper easier route. They can charge more and pocket the profits.