In praise of idlers

[Fishfood]

That's so gorgeous in such a simple way. I love the white color with the Schroder arm. I've heard such nice things about this table but I got interrupted by a VPI Aries project that I'm now probably selling off and I'm thinking the Solid 9 is way easier to deal with than the 401 I've also been considering, for the same reason: don't really want to deal with a massive plinth, especially since my table sits on a wall shelf that would have to be reengineered for that table.

Do you have the upgraded bearing and power controller?

 

[Tlay]

That's so gorgeous in such a simple way. I love the white color with the Schroder arm. I've heard such nice things about this table but I got interrupted by a VPI Aries project that I'm now probably selling off and I'm thinking the Solid 9 is way easier to deal with than the 401 I've also been considering, for the same reason: don't really want to deal with a massive plinth, especially since my table sits on a wall shelf that would have to be reengineered for that table.

Do you have the upgraded bearing and power controller?

Thank you! I have been very happy with it. I was unsure what color to get. I was so tired of just black. So I thought white would ‘pop’ in an understated way. Plus it doesn’t show dust. I had Peter add the upgraded bearing, footers and also his speed controller. It was so simple to set up and it is just set and forget. I ordered the arm through Peter as well so it was pre drilled specifically for it.
I have been very pleased with it-stable, dynamic, quiet and transparent. I have never heard a “super table” though. Only tables in the 5-10k range. But I see this thing staying with me for a very long time. And the arm can accommodate many cartridges. Hope this helps you on your mission!
Tim

 

[Fishfood]

just negotiating with my wife now. We try to have a 6 month rule about new purchases. It's more to let something really sink in before knee jerk upgrading than anything else. It can be torture.

 

[Tlay]

just negotiating with my wife now. We try to have a 6 month rule about new purchases. It's more to let something really sink in before knee jerk upgrading than anything else. It can be torture.

Ha! I know the feeling. I almost bought this table 2 years ago and then was paralyzed by analysis. It’s hard when all one has to go off is random feedback from systems one is unfamiliar with.

 

[mtemur]

You should go to school again.

I studied naval architecture/naval engineering 4 years at the university and graduated with a very good degree. but you are right I should turn back to school IOT lecture you.

 

[Don_Camillo]

I'm glad to hear that you learned at least something. Just screwing an outboard motor to an inflatable boat according to the instructions or being able to calculate the best route between two sandbanks does not make you more than a halfway passable skipper. For complex mechanical designs and technical mechanics at all, you need something more. Otherwise, your demeanor just reminds me of this

Your just chattering nonsens.

 

[jespera]

You need a strong motor and a heavy platter. The stupidity comes in when people put an elastic band between them.

 

[mtemur]

I'm glad to hear that you learned at least something. Just screwing an outboard motor to an inflatable boat according to the instructions or being able to calculate the best route between two sandbanks does not make you more than a halfway passable skipper. For complex mechanical relationships and technical mechanics, you need something more. Otherwise, your demeanor just reminds me of this

Your just chattering nonsens.

First lesson: add some wit to your responses don’t use just plain offensive.

 

[Don_Camillo]

First lesson: add some wit to your responses don’t use just plain offensive.

I think you found this in a multiple choice spell knocker book.

 

[mtemur]

I think you found this in a multiple choise spell knocker book.

Second lesson: Don’t blame anyone by something you do.
Not choise, choice I will not let you pollute this thread by replying you anymore.

 

[Don_Camillo]

I've put you on my ignore list, so I no longer have to worry about the impertinence, the aggressiveness and the nonsense you spew

 

[Don_Camillo]

You need a strong motor and a heavy platter. The stupidity comes in when people put an elastic band between them.

In order to achieve high accuracy in speed you need (high) torque at the motor but the heavier the platter gets the more you will see accuracy getting lower. Reason for this is with strech slip, what you´ll recognize inevitably with any belt drive design and to be at about 2%. The havier the platter gets the more stech slip you will get and the negative effect will raise exponentially.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I believe idlers can be prone to rumble. There's a lot of that recently on this thread, lol.
Better to strive for less noise, guys.

 

[PeterA]

In order to achieve high accuracy in speed you need (high) torque at the motor but the heavier the platter gets the more you will see accuracy getting lower. Reason for this is with strech slip, what you´ll recognize inevitably with any belt drive design and to be at about 2%. The havier the platter gets the more stech slip you will get and the negative effect will raise exponentially.

Why do you assume the belt has to be stretchy or even a belt? About a month ago I had the opportunity to do a series of experiments with an extremely good turntable from the 1970s. It had a stretchy belt included when I picked it up. I listened to the stretchy belt and then replaced it with a non-stretch belt. I then replace the non-stretch belt with dental floss that I made to not have any twists in it so it was essentially a very small non-stretch belt. I then replace that with a thin thread. Each time I changed the connection between the motor and the heavy platter, the sound improved.

Each time the motor had less and less influence on the platter. The platter is massive and lifted by a cushion of air. It maintains a very stable and accurate speed and is very silent because there is no bearing noise. The inertia maintains steady speed.

 

[Don_Camillo]

Why do you assume the belt has to be stretchy or even a belt?

I do not assume that. It´s about strech slip that´s inevitably occuring in any belt driven design and with even new belts or "special made" so called non slipery belts too. I´m simply talking about a technical fact.

Each time I changed the connection between the motor and the heavy platter, the sound improved.

Each time the motor had less and less influence on the platter. The platter is massive and lifted by a cushion of air. It maintains a very stable and accurate speed and is very silent because there is no bearing noise. The inertia maintains steady speed.

Please don´t mix up things. Of course it sounds different in your experiment but impression and leveraging about better or worse is 1.) individual/ subjective as long as detected only by ears and 2.) needs to be prooven by measurement if you want to name it "better" or "worse".

Effects are dependend on what motor type is used and how motor speed accurancy is achieved. Secondly it depends on the amount of tourque the motor can provide and the inertia and mass of the platter. All of this results in speed accuracy and wow and flutter measurement. But with building on high inertia only or reducing speed control effects on the platter you´ll generate higher Wow and flutter as well as less speed acuracy. Speaking of better or worse in this perspective and with perspetive clearly on physics it is always the worst one can do.

With low speed accuracy and therefore higher wow and flutter values you´ll recognize a bit more bass on first sight, going into detail will point at there are less details. Furthermore spatiality changes to details are more in the forefront, stage seems to be detailed at first glance but limitied in deepth and width at second view.

With higher speed accuracy and lower wow and flutter values you´ll get more details, more spatiality, stage will become more width, deepth and height, because of more details you´ll say there´s less bass and more heights in the picture painted than before and some people will therefore prefer lower accuracy in speed.

 

[jespera]

In order to achieve high accuracy in speed you need (high) torque at the motor but the heavier the platter gets the more you will see accuracy getting lower. Reason for this is with strech slip, what you´ll recognize inevitably with any belt drive design and to be at about 2%. The havier the platter gets the more stech slip you will get and the negative effect will raise exponentially.

Sounds like homemade physics to me. I have never seen any slip on a belt drive.

The belt and platter system is like a spring with a weight on it. A harmonic oscillator with resonance frequency f = sqrt(k/m) where k is the spring constant of the belt and m is the mass of the platter.
Higher mass will decrease the frequency of speed woble provoked by stylus drag — but the magnitude will be smaller.

Btw, less strech will increase the resonance frequency — and decrease the magnitude.

Harmonic oscillator - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[jespera]

Why do you assume the belt has to be stretchy or even a belt? About a month ago I had the opportunity to do a series of experiments with an extremely good turntable from the 1970s. It had a stretchy belt included when I picked it up. I listened to the stretchy belt and then replaced it with a non-stretch belt. I then replace the non-stretch belt with dental floss that I made to not have any twists in it so it was essentially a very small non-stretch belt. I then replace that with a thin thread. Each time I changed the connection between the motor and the heavy platter, the sound improved.

Each time the motor had less and less influence on the platter. The platter is massive and lifted by a cushion of air. It maintains a very stable and accurate speed and is very silent because there is no bearing noise. The inertia maintains steady speed.

If less stretch gives you better sound why not go all the way and switch to an idler?

 

[Don_Camillo]

Sounds like homemade physics to me. I have never seen any slip on a belt drive.

Strech slip ist a fact and not homemade physics at all.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Every belt has a "stick and slip"effect thats physic,this becomes even worse if you reduce the wrap angle on the platter.
This extends the acceleration phase and also the braking phase of the engine.
modern fast control can compensate with a sensor on the platter or motor.
The better way is like this a great wrap angle on the platter, that elimate the stick and slip effect on a minimum.

 

[jespera]

Every belt has a "stick and slip"effect thats physic,this becomes even worse if you reduce the wrap angle on the platter.
This extends the acceleration phase and also the braking phase of the engine.
modern fast control can compensate with a sensor on the platter or motor.
The better way is like this a great wrap angle on the platter, that elimate the stick and slip effect on a minimum.View attachment 97098

If you by “stretch slip” or “stick slip” mean that the motor struggles to control the platter due to the elasticity of the belt — then i agree.

If it means that the belt is actually slipping on the platter then i disagree.

I cant see what good the construction in the picture will do — other than potentially tightening the belt and reducing its elasticity…

Again, why not completely eliminate the belt and put a wheel (idler) in between motor and platter ..?