In wall power cabling advice

[MarkusBarkus]

...that cluster of orange Romex was very impressive. And the lovely coil antenna was neatly executed. Code issues aside, the framing is exposed, so it was really a sloppy job on top of that. Well sorted now, looks like. I just don't understand that mentality, frankly.

Thanks again for the pics.

 

[NZS]

Hi @NZS
Yes, sir I get the thrust of your enquiry re: sound quality per strand type/amount. The #6 ga. cable I used comes from the fella who makes the TT7 power unit, just as a reference re: strand count.

Maybe we can pull @Kingrex into this, as he is highly knowledgeable and always has an opinion. I think he may favor solid wire runs these days.

As you noted, code compliance/safety is Job1. Which I think will mean the set of options will be limited. As I recall, Rex is even listening/checking for directionality in his cable runs. Record and post your electrician's response when you tell him that!

Hello MarkusBarkus,

The Electrician has been very willing, intrigued and open to taking on board new ideas so far, as long as it meets the code.
The direction of a power cable is an interesting concept and I'm intrigued.
Once I get my head around it or not, I'll test the Sparkies openness.

 

[NZS]

Cuzzy-Bro - were are across the ditch from one another…

I could sort of believe it for a “Switch Mode Power Supply” (SMPS).
But most gear has a power supply with capacitors and stores the energy as DC.

Certainly with experience running some tube amps I am always impressed with the music playing for 10 seconds after the power is cut.
If the device has a transformer, then the neutral and hot side are generating the DC relative to either the neutral or a transformer center tap… so it seems unlikely that after going from (assuming) the hydro of NZ to the house… that one can pick up a lot benefit with the cables in the wall.

What happens on the ground could be different, and it might be possible for low impedance cables and power cords to sink the nuetral and ground with more bandwidth. In that case more small wires have more surface area… and should have performance out to the MHz or further. At least in theory. Dunno if it is ever needed though.



You might be correct.

Many people change cabling and find a difference.
But also people that replace receptacles with high grip ones, and clean off the decades of corrosion get similar gains.
I could believe that corrosion could be worse in coastal areas and maybe worse for more small wires?



I don’t know…
- Apart would help to not induce voltages in the other set.
- But together would minimise an coil for magnetic fields to couple in.

Most of the stuff here is not twisted, like the flat white jacketed cabling.
The round orange stuff (Maybe Clipsal) might be somewhat wound???, so I would probably have that run If they were close together.

The modest priced “grippy outlet” is not a bad idea.

And I am not sure if there are things to slow down corrosion. The sparkies just seem to twist the ends up, and bung em straight into the receptical.

Gidday Holmz across the ditch,

Thank you for your time and thoughts.

I haven't any experiences with tube amps, but I do remember when I was young the B&W tube TV powering down.

I assume the power I have is relatively clean, i.e. no hums etc. but in saying this, this maybe the case or not.
It's not until a change of something unknown you may have, into something that makes you stop and take notice, if that makes sense?
With all the variables I do feel that everything has an impact, it's just to what scale and matter.

Yes, clean grippy receptacles and end of the wires should have a good positive impact.
The Electrical code may have a say on treating the ends of cables, especially at the switchboard, although corrosion is not generally a problem here with our climate.

 

[NZS]

I have done a pretty extensive test of behind the wall wires that are legal in the US and Canada. Europe and Asia have other options.

Thank you Kingrex for your reply and photos.

KR- And wire is only a piece of the game. This is what an electrician did for a custom Boulder/Magico installation. This is all wrong on so many levels. I was there to remove and rebuild it all.

The first photo is not way out of normal for house wiring, although the amount of coil is slightly more than usual and bunching a lot of cables on long runs is not good practice.
Audio sound is not usually on the average Electrician's mind (to no fault of theirs) when electrical wiring. Or to most of us.
The second photo is a lot more professional and tradesman like, even if it wasn't for audio, well done.

My amp. is a Kinki Studios amp running, both analogue (Vinyl) and digital (Streaming).

The retro fit is quite a mission and running a conduit is not really an option. The wire feed from the switchboard is up a stud wall, into and across a closed ceiling space, through a concrete wall into another closed ceiling space and finally through a concrete floor into a timber stud wall. All this with minimal impact and minimal access points. This is a one off, hence giving the best crack at the better cable option.
Plus I'm interested in the reasons, outcomes of such and the results.

KR- I need to update stranded wire on my site. DDK pushes it. Peter put it in. I just tried a batch with my Audion SET845 amp and it will lay down brittle or hard edges. I would recommend it pulled in a pipe for horn systems. I like solid core wire for most other type systems. You need to be aware what your powering.

Do you think that one type of cable is more suited to an amp and a different type cable to digital components ( DAC's, network players, Cd's etc)?

 

[Kingrex]

You need to consider what you system is and how its currently voicing. What is the equipment doing before selecting wire for inwall use. A blend of wires is probably best.

I think field hands maybe get nervous of cutting things short, so the leave extra. That was a lot of extra. In a regular home, I come down one stud, then make a high arch to the other and into the box. That gives me an extra foot to pull in if something is cut short. In a home that is not attracting noise that matters. BUT, I am highly confident now the issues with smoke detectors false indications is related to emf and rf. I would be much more cautious how I ran those wires if I were roping a house. I would treat them like a data cable.

I don't remember all they teach as an apprentice. If your non union, you don't even get classes. The only talk of coiled wire was if you put an iron core or magnet in it, what happens. I don't remember anyone talking about it becoming an RF antenna. Maybe inductor. That knowledge comes from engineers in more critical applications. Yes the bundling of wire is a clear code violation.

I'm surprised how much a wire can voice. I'm happy but also a little peeved. It makes me want to always stay open to options. That means a raceway. I never even noted mil spec silver coated wire on my site. I tried that years ago. It was very heavy and dark. I was surprised. Probably the most prominent in tone wire I have used. I guess I should grab a chunk of tin coated copper. All the Mil spec stuff is stranded tin coated. I have been told the tin is such a poor conductor, it acts like a jacket and the wires are more a litz geometry. Imagine the push back from field hands I will get when I tell them to polish off the tin before terminating. They would loose their minds.

I should also get a piece of jacketed MC like Audience uses. I don't see what the yellow jacket does. Its only a liquid barrier. Its the steel or aluminum surround that is interacting more with the wire. Steel being a good shield against emf and aluminum against RF. Audience is using the aluminum jacket.

Flat wire is considered a transmission line. Its very good at passing current. Twisting creates a higher impedance so it won't make as long a run. Its pretty audible between the 2. The grain orienting has something to do with it too. At least in my observations.

I would tell anyone, if your runs are short, use a raceway. It allows you options. You can change wire out like a power cord. I am happy to have the stranded now. I had alwayd used the Oyaide with a silver Furutec end to the SET 845 and was not that happy with the amp. I am extremely happy with the SET 845 now that I have the stranded with a copper end. It amp itself has a lot more distortions and I assume a fair amount of odd order that keeps me from turning the volume past comfortable. But its pretty WOW compared to the Dartzeel. The Dartzeel on the other hand was not that great with stranded. It much prefers the solid grain oriented twisted wire with the Furutec end. It does matter and is very audible. I am a little surprised DDK liked the Ching Cheng so much. I now see it as neutral to bright. Then again, a lot of the heavy work in shaping the tone is the behind the wall steanded wire, and the amps he utilize may have lower distortion levels than mine. I still have leaking voltage in my audion SET845. My assumption is there are hots to close to grounds, or a poor layout in the circuit board that is letting voltage induce to the ground wire. That then makes the ground loop on the signal wire. This all appears to be exaggerated by dirty street power as the Audion overall are more quiet and play much better now that the 4.5 kVA Torus is feeding them. On a personal side it makes me want to try a Whammerdyne Truth 2A3 amp. Pat Hickman publishes his distrotion levels and they are very low for a tube amp.

 

[_Alchemist_]

I used these two which are specifically made for in wall:

EE / F-Ｓ 2.6 ｜電線・ケーブル・オーディオ・専門店　小柳出電気商会（オヤイデ、oyaide）

www.oyaide.com

The oyaide is very very rigid, so keep in mind for installation, and it takes forever to break in, that being said it's a very good cable.

Alpha-CB10 | FURUTECH

For installation in fire retardant tubing only

www.furutech.com

This one I used for panel wiring, it's a one conductor cable only

 

[mtemur]

No multi stranded cable will be good for the job. It has to be a cable with single cores (3) with or without shield. IMHO Oyaide 102 ssc is a good option. I’m using 25meters F-S2.6 version of that cable. Multi stranded cables are slow and causes more voltage drop compared to solid cores. IMHO multi stranded cables should only be used as power cords in 2 or 3 meters of lengths.

 

[Holmz]

<…> Multi stranded cables are slow and causes more voltage drop compared to solid cores. IMHO multi stranded cables should only be used as power cords in 2 or 3 meters of lengths.

Slow how?
(In some applications for ground, they mandate stranded cable specifically for high frequency applications.)

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...and have fun pulling six or eight gauge single-strand cable. Sounds like fun.

 

[Kingrex]

Oyaide makes good wire. No NRTL for use in the US.

Stranded and solid do perform different. Stranded has tiny capacitive contact along the whole conductor where the strands touch. I am told this is the reason the sound can become smeared.

Solid is only available up to 10 awg. Unless its bare copper for a ground.

You have to be careful what wire you put behind the wall unless its in a pipe. Right.

Power cords with fancy names and big price tags are not always better. Manufacturer do tricks with the geometry to shape the sound. Be careful the wire behind your wall has not been manipulated to much. This can change the frequency response a little. I don't think it will change the impulse, square or CSD. If you want to change frequency response, you can do it much more precisely in your room with DSP.

 

[mtemur]

Slow how?
(In some applications for ground, they mandate stranded cable specifically for high frequency applications.)

slow on responding to power supply of amp or other components. it helps the amp to respond fast to speaker load. I don't know how but it makes a huge difference on bass control and everywhere else.
IMHO if you're using anything more high end than a Sony FH-5 than solid core cable is a must. a hi-fi system can not perform it's best if wired with multi stranded cable other than power cords.

 

[Holmz]

slow on responding to power supply of amp or other components. it helps the amp to respond fast to speaker load. I don't know how but it makes a huge difference on bass control and everywhere else.

The “how” would be if the capacitor bank was not able to maintain the voltage needed.

IMHO if you're using anything more high end than a Sony FH-5 than solid core cable is a must. a hi-fi system can not perform it's best if wired with multi stranded cable other than power cords.

Sorry I don’t have the Sony, but these opinions sort of ignore the fact that every peice of gear has its own power supply and storage capacitor banks, so a blanket statement covers potential outliers.

Secondly the incoming power is crossing through zero 100 or 120 times per second.
So it doesn’t matter if the thing is a 1” diameter solid copper rod… there is a percentage of the time where the incoming voltage is below what can cross over the diode… and there will be a power gap.
And hence why the caps are inside there in the first place.

And the option also somewhat ignores that for true high frequency work, a stranded ground cable is often recommended.
And that residential power is 60Hz, and hence considered by most to be termed as low frequency.

If the manufacturer said we will through in a power cord, or double the capacitor bank, then I would pick the later case 99% of the time.

 

[mtemur]

The “how” would be if the capacitor bank was not able to maintain the voltage needed.



Sorry I don’t have the Sony, but these opinions sort of ignore the fact that every peice of gear has its own power supply and storage capacitor banks, so a blanket statement covers potential outliers.

Secondly the incoming power is crossing through zero 100 or 120 times per second.
So it doesn’t matter if the thing is a 1” diameter solid copper rod… there is a percentage of the time where the incoming voltage is below what can cross over the diode… and there will be a power gap.
And hence why the caps are inside there in the first place.

And the option also somewhat ignores that for true high frequency work, a stranded ground cable is often recommended.
And that residential power is 60Hz, and hence considered by most to be termed as low frequency.

If the manufacturer said we will through in a power cord, or double the capacitor bank, then I would pick the later case 99% of the time.

Ok, I see a pattern here. It's inline with "Power cords don't make a difference" or "Digital signal only has ones and zeros so cable doesn't make a difference" or "A well designed amplifier doesn't benefit a dedicated power line"
On the contrary everything makes a difference. I explained how an in wall power cable should be based on my experience on many setups. Grounding is another important topic but not mentioned here.

 

[Holmz]

Ok, I see a pattern here. It's inline with "Power cords don't make a difference" or "Digital signal only has ones and zeros so cable doesn't make a difference" or "A well designed amplifier doesn't benefit a dedicated power line"
On the contrary everything makes a difference. I explained how an in wall power cable should be based on my experience on many setups. Grounding is another important topic but not mentioned here.

Don’t get your knickers in a twist, I only asked what make the cable slow.
And from what I understand it is that the ability to carry higher frequencies actually increases as the surface area increases.
It was a simple question as to how the solid core is better?

I never stated in this thread that they did not make a difference, so let‘s try and stay on topic please.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I expect there are many variables impacting the outcome when using solid-core or stranded cable in-wall. The gear being fed. Length of the run. Overall quality of the incoming service feed. Panel config. Outlets. Quality of copper (presumably copper). Proximity to undesirable "radiation." Conduit Y/N. Conduit material. Power cables. Where does it end. Challenging to make a definitive blanket statement about one vs. the other for "all" use cases. But good to consider and discuss, for sure.

 

[Zeotrope]

It doesn’t really matter! Use a thick enough gauge of Romex for the length of the run between panel and outlet.
Remember that electrons do not flow down a wire! They are not moving from the panel to the outlet, for example. This is why only the last mile (i.e., outlet to components) is really important. This is why an AC filter or regenerator can make such a big difference. This is why an AC cord from the outlet to the component makes a huge difference.
Someone on WBF I posted a video explaining this. Will try to find it.

 

[Powerman]

I was reading this interesting thread because I have a specific question for me. The circuit my gear is on feeds half the basement. There is not a lot that runs regularly. I can pretty easily run a dedicated circuit from my panel to my stereo. I can easily feed everything from a 20 amp. Is it worth it? Does it matter? Does it get rid of interference from other items? I don't really need it because I need more power.

 

[Holmz]

I was reading this interesting thread because I have a specific question for me. The circuit my gear is on feeds half the basement. There is not a lot that runs regularly. I can pretty easily run a dedicated circuit from my panel to my stereo. I can easily feed everything from a 20 amp. Is it worth it? Does it matter? Does it get rid of interference from other items? I don't really need it because I need more power.

If it sounds good now, then I would ask, “why”?
If you were rewiring anyhow, then I would say, “why not”?

Sometimes just newer the grippier outlets, and cinching down the wires, can be an improvement.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...for me, the dedicated line was an improvement. Initially, I ran a 12ga. Romex line into a Shunyata outlet.

Then I ran a stranded 10ga. THHN line, in Flexible Metal Conduit (FMC), into a Shunyata outlet.

Then, in the spirit of "anything worth doing is worth over doing" #6.

The length of your run may play a role in the decision. But if you're pulling cable, why not up-gauge? You may also be able to move breakers around to get "noisy" single-phase devices on the non-audio phase. Good Luck!

 

[Powerman]

Yes, this would simply be to run a dedicated line. My listening room is next to garage... So run it and punch through the wall like a couple others. Maybe 50 feet. I will say my system is dead quiet now. Tube amp and soon to be tube dac.