Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator

[ketcham]

"The aggregate cost per system is around the cost of a Power Plant, but I found it sonically more effective to break isolation down to smaller bricks, on a low-consumption / high-efficiency system. "

I have not considered this approach or recommended it. Thank you. This is something I am going to research further. Conceptually, there is no common ground plane since everything is isolated. This is one that still is hard for me to comprehend.

 

[213Cobra]

>>...I have not considered this approach or recommended it. Thank you. This is something I am going to research further. Conceptually, there is no common ground plane since everything is isolated. This is one that still is hard for me to comprehend....<<

On Hovland's BAL/ISO xformer, output is balanced and earthed via center tap to ground. Both the front end BAL/ISO and the power amps' BAL/ISO are powered directly from the VR, so it is effectively the star ground for the ISOs. The systems are actually quieter than when I have run no isolation, but a common ground. ANY equipment changes are liable to force some reconfiguring. For example, when I put Ampzilla 2000 2nd Ed in the main system, I have to use an Ebtech Hum X on each amp's power plug. The Hum X maintains ground but filters out any voltage traveling through the ground. With those and the Ampzillas installed -- quiet. I always have a handful of Hum X around since they are useful with guitar amps, and solve some hifi ground problems too.

Phil

 

[Kris]

So in short it is a good idea or not to use balanced power ?
There is Keces BP series with balanced toroidal inside.
Any of you tried this with good effects ?
any dowsides of the balanced power ?

 

[ketcham]

Balance power has advantages - noise rejection. If your equipment plugs directly into a balanced power unit then there is no local building code regulations. In my region, I am required to have special permitting, GFC outlets and no lamp or dimmer switches plugged into these outlets.

I am familiar with Torus Power. They use balanced power on all units with 240V input. The 120V output to my dedicated room is unbalanced and therefore no electric code issues. Both 120V and 240V have some proprietary and effective noise suppression that does not limit current or harm dynamics.

 

[213Cobra]

So in short it is a good idea or not to use balanced power ?
There is Keces BP series with balanced toroidal inside.
Any of you tried this with good effects ?
any dowsides of the balanced power ?

Sonically, I have found no downside to BAL power, but in one case where an isolation transformer can be run ISO unbal or BAL, there can be some subtle differences with some gear that lead to preference of one over the other. As Ketcham noted, it is not wise to plug lamps or dimmers into BAL power outlets, whether a code violation or not. I am using specialized BAL pwr iso xformers on my low power tube amps, and another on front end gear, all tied to a common voltage source from a regulator 15A voltage regulator. Works and sounds great.

Phil

 

[LL21]

I have to say, i understand very little about the science. I have done reading here, and spoken with audio industry people...particularly including both Torus and Gryphon Audio manufacturers. After this background research, I trialed the Torus AVR16 (16 amps, 3800kVA) and am extremely happy. It did a lot more for the system than the Burmester 948 but I have elected to keep the Burmester going into the Torus for now...where the Burmester is only serving the DAC and pre. The amp goes straight into the Torus so that the entire system is driven by the Torus.

It currently shows a draw of 4.4amp - 4.7amps when playing. And as someone copied/pasted here from the website, the AVR16 seems to have capability to produce something on the order of spot peak of 300amps if called for.

Thanks all for providing your various insights...the system is even quieter, more resolved, enabling much greater detail to surface plus particularly and as importantly...the system 'voice' is identical to before the Torus went in.

 

[LL21]

I have to add...having now spoken several times with Torus, I am truly amazed by the quality of their people, technicians and leadership when it comes to looking after customers. Wow. Top in their field. Thank you, Torus.

 

[marty]

Also discussed on other threads. Nothing new here. Just review

post #88
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...sing-rca-connections.30014/page-5#post-636198
post #28
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...sing-rca-connections.30014/page-2#post-626565

 

[Pallen]

So in short it is a good idea or not to use balanced power ?
There is Keces BP series with balanced toroidal inside.
Any of you tried this with good effects ?
any dowsides of the balanced power ?

Plenty of comment here from people who know more than me. But you might find my post #3 (in this thread)interesting. I found balanced power transformers superior to the power regenerators and the power conditioners I tried.

But not all balanced transformers are equal - not even close IME. I did not try Torus but they have a very good reputation and I was impressed by their answer to my technical questions. Torus is likely a safe place to start. Also, opting for a 'heavy' loading as 213Cobra did with his Hovland transformer is a good move IME. This helped in my system too. Paying attention to loading is important from what I can make out.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .

I found balanced power transformers superior to the power regenerators and the power conditioners I tried.

. . .

Hello,

In what ways did you find the balanced power transformer sonically superior to the regenerator? Which components were you powering with the devices?

Thank you.

 

[Kris]

Plenty of comment here from people who know more than me. But you might find my post #3 (in this thread)interesting. I found balanced power transformers superior to the power regenerators and the power conditioners I tried.

But not all balanced transformers are equal - not even close IME. I did not try Torus but they have a very good reputation and I was impressed by their answer to my technical questions. Torus is likely a safe place to start. Also, opting for a 'heavy' loading as 213Cobra did with his Hovland transformer is a good move IME. This helped in my system too. Paying attention to loading is important from what I can make out.

Thank you Pallen and All others for very valuable response !
This is priceless.

I am not looking for equipement to start with.
I would love to get the very best solution and forget.
Everything else is top end already and power is the only one that awaits for final touch .
I have 2 dedicated lines running to my room.
Have 5kva Topaz iso trafo but it cuts some of the air and dynamics so not the very best in my system.
I also tried Shunyata Triton and it worked fine but not as effective as I would expect.
I was hoping the balanced will keep the air and dynamics and effectively clean the power In contrast to Topaz.

 

[213Cobra]

Thank you Pallen and All others for very valuable response !
This is priceless.

I am not looking for equipement to start with.
I would love to get the very best solution and forget.
Everything else is top end already and power is the only one that awaits for final touch .
I have 2 dedicated lines running to my room.
Have 5kva Topaz iso trafo but it cuts some of the air and dynamics so not the very best in my system.
I also tried Shunyata Triton and it worked fine but not as effective as I would expect.
I was hoping the balanced will keep the air and dynamics and effectively clean the power In contrast to Topaz.

What are your actual power requirements? How much transformer capacity do you need for your system?

Phil

 

[JayDee]

Really interesting thread. A few years ago i tried two isotek products. Super titan and their top of the range regenerator as i felt my power supply was noisy. The supertitan at circa £10k came out straight away. It sucked the life out of my power amps. In short i hated it in my system. The regenerator similarly was not great. Some advantages but some disadvantages also. Again it was in excess of £10k. I did not keep any. About 6 months later i was introduced to z-axis as i bought my first Totaldac from him as a second hand unit. In talking he showed me his Symetrica Balanced power supply. I was not interested as by now i felt power units were a waste given my experience with the premium, most expensive Isotek. Paul at z axis then convinced me to borrow it. At the time it was half the cost of the isoteks. I had no idea it was essentially a balanced unit, I just tried it. It is still in my system today and i loved it. It has 3 balanced power supplies in one unit. 10 sockets. A common ground and i was able to run my whole system. Digital, analogue, powers amps through the one unit. It is one of the best pieces of audio equipment i have found and along with my Totaldac direct and Totaldac drivers i cannot imagine my system without it. Hope that helps

 

[Kris]

Really interesting thread. A few years ago i tried two isotek products. Super titan and their top of the range regenerator as i felt my power supply was noisy. The supertitan at circa £10k came out straight away. It sucked the life out of my power amps. In short i hated it in my system. The regenerator similarly was not great. Some advantages but some disadvantages also. Again it was in excess of £10k. I did not keep any. About 6 months later i was introduced to z-axis as i bought my first Totaldac from him as a second hand unit. In talking he showed me his Symetrica Balanced power supply. I was not interested as by now i felt power units were a waste given my experience with the premium, most expensive Isotek. Paul at z axis then convinced me to borrow it. At the time it was half the cost of the isoteks. I had no idea it was essentially a balanced unit, I just tried it. It is still in my system today and i loved it. It has 3 balanced power supplies in one unit. 10 sockets. A common ground and i was able to run my whole system. Digital, analogue, powers amps through the one unit. It is one of the best pieces of audio equipment i have found and along with my Totaldac direct and Totaldac drivers i cannot imagine my system without it. Hope that helps

I am in contact with Paul.
Will give it a try Once EU version is available.
There are many similar Balanced power options and they are much cheaper.
But Z Axis looks a way better.
Hope it also sounds significantly better than other solutions.

 

[JayDee]

I am in contact with Paul.
Will give it a try Once EU version is available.
There are many similar Balanced power options and they are much cheaper.
But Z Axis looks a way better.
Hope it also sounds significantly better than other solutions.

Its so good. The music became so natural. And whilst expensive, it is actually less than two of my interconnects so I concluded ‘on balance’ It was actually good value. A bad picture below through the lid but it is a work if art. If you are in Contact with Paul that is great but it really is so much more than simply one balanced supply

 

[Kris]

What are your actual power requirements? How much transformer capacity do you need for your system?

Phil

The more power the better I think.
8 sockets to be occupied.

8 amps in 2 active speakers . (2 power cords) 600w each =1200w ( 800 VA)
Extreme from Taiko ( 400 VA)
Totaldac 24 that is 8 boxes solution (one powercord) ( total of around 250VA)
Totaldac Drivers 2 boxes ( 2 power cords) ( 100 VA)
2 external power supplys for USB and Eter Regen ( 2 powe cords) (150 VA)

So total trafos used is 1700 VA

 

[Kris]

Its so good. The music became so natural. And whilst expensive, it is actually less than two of my interconnects so I concluded ‘on balance’ It was actually good value. A bad picture below through the lid but it is a work if art. If you are in Contact with Paul that is great but it really is so much more than simply one balanced supply

that is very impressive.
pictures are great . Thx.
how much you paid for that gear ?

 

[Kris]

Also discussed on other threads. Nothing new here. Just review

post #88
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...sing-rca-connections.30014/page-5#post-636198
post #28
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...sing-rca-connections.30014/page-2#post-626565

Very informative .
Thank you Marty for sharing !
I really dont want to keep buying and trying as many of you did.
Prefer to test the best in the field solutions only .
Select, buy and forget.

 

[Alrainbow]

Found it wow very well made
It’s acually a several iso balanced in one unit.
It has 3 that I see so one could use them on various setups And not have one pollute the rest. Very nice.
I’m browsing there website now.

 

[Pallen]

What are your actual power requirements? How much transformer capacity do you need for your system?

Phil

Hello Phil. It's several years since I corresponded with you about tube amps and speakers. At the time, you shared some great insights and advice which were very helpful indeed. My system now is similar to Keith R's which you have been involved with. I have different source equipment to Keith (TT + SUT + Tube phono and a CDP) but use the same MFA Baby Reference V2 Preamp into an Audio Research REF75SE driving Devore Gibbon X's. A system I'm perfectly happy with. My focus now is getting the very best out of it. And my power requirements are modest.

I purchased and tried 2 balanced transformers over a period of time. The 2nd one was a custom made Balanced 700VA EI Transformer (ie: not toroidal) made with high quality materials (eg OCC copper wiring etc). It's 700VA capacity was specified for my various source components, but I found I could also run my ARC REF 75SE amp off it without a problem. That gave me a significantly better result than any power regenerator or power conditioner I had tried until then. Not all my components benefited equally – it was my ARC amp and turntable that stepped up most with this Balanced EI Transformer in place.

Ron, to answer your question, you have to bear in mind that my experience of power regenerators and power conditioners was limited to Isotek and Nordost products. And my experience of the Isotek Genesis One Regenerator I tried was consistent with JayDee's comments above. It's over a year ago so I can't be highly specific, but I recall the sound being flat, bland, processed sounding and lacking in colour or naturalness. Like JayDee, I took it out of my sytem quite quickly and never felt the need to try it again. None of the power conditioners I tried did much for me either. I have since tried a Gigabyte conditioner whcih was significantly better than the other regenerators and conditioners, but not as involving as a well designed balanced power transformer.

Re the Z-Axis unit that Jaydee has, I read the posts by Paul of Z-Axis at length and flirted with taking a punt and buying one. But as I live in New Zealand, long distance shipping costs and exchange rates make it uncomfortably expensive. From Jaydee's comments, Paul's unit sounds very good and therefore a further demonstration that some Bal transformers are significantly better than others. Another UK brand I considered was Westwick which Spirit uses. They told me they use a Torus transformer in their unit, wound and made to their own specifications.

I ended up with a premium spec'ed power strip from Canada (Gutwire 8-Bar with Furutech NCF connectors) and that has given me the best results so far, more naturalness & colour which matter to me. But if I win the lottery, I may relook at a top notch Balanced Transformer from Z-Axis, Westwick or Torus in the future.