Jbl 4367

[DaveC]

I'm running my 102 dB horn off a 300 wpc digital amp right now, it's fantastic. Digital amps don't need to be turned up to sound good like big transistor amps usually do, and if called upon to deliver power, they can without distortion.

I'm also running my 15" woofer off a 600W D amp, with excellent results.

The thing about speakers like the JBL and also the speaker I'm designing, is they can play very loud. My speakers can take about 900 watts with an overall sensitivity around 95 dB. Do the math, 120 dB peaks are effortless... I think the JBLs can take 300W, still very loud. there's no point in owning a speaker with those kinds of SPL capabilities if you're never going to use them

Bliz, that was a nice list of drivers earlier but I'm thinking Acoustic Elegance is the $hit right now... I have Volt and JBL 15" woofers here too and they seem like toys next to the AE TD15H+. The AEs bass measures a good bit less distortion vs my reference speakers, Pioneer S-1EX, and admittedly the bass isn't the strong point in that speaker but the difference is striking. They keep up with the 102 dB horns effortlessly and seamlessly, it's pretty awesome really... And that's in cheap test cabinets... I am not sure I've heard a better woofer...

EDIT: you guys posted a whole page while I wrote this ^, settle down!

 

[Blizzard]

and I'm not saying digital, or chip, or Class D can't sound good on some systems. in fact, my speakers use Hypex for active bass amps I just feel with high efficiency speakers, there are considerably better alternatives for the rest of the frequency range.

Pretty easy to feel that way when you don't have a clue.

 

[joeinid]

Hi Blizzard,

I've seen these amps before and thought about getting them. Do you like them? Are there any other amps that you recommend?

Thanks!

Joe

What you need to spend over $10K to get good performance out of class D?

100X better 1w THD+N than your first watt amp performance appears to be available for only $1995. For a pair of mono blocks no less.


http://www.tweekgeek.com/acoustic-imagery-atsah-500/

 

[Blizzard]

ahh, now come the personal attacks- awesome!

um, ok. this has nothing to do with Michael's current sound, but was just a suggestion to try something low powered as IMO it would sound better and is a HUGE benefit of having high efficient speakers.

and you've never heard a low power SS amp on high efficiency speakers as we've figured out.

I've heard hundreds of SS amps on efficient speakers. I was discussing a most recent audition.

 

[Blizzard]

I'm running my 102 dB horn off a 300 wpc digital amp right now, it's fantastic. Digital amps don't need to be turned up to sound good like big transistor amps usually do, and if called upon to deliver power, they can without distortion.

I'm also running my 15" woofer off a 600W D amp, with excellent results.

The thing about speakers like the JBL and also the speaker I'm designing, is they can play very loud. My speakers can take about 900 watts with an overall sensitivity around 95 dB. Do the math, 120 dB peaks are effortless... I think the JBLs can take 300W, still very loud. there's no point in owning a speaker with those kinds of SPL capabilities if you're never going to use them

Bliz, that was a nice list of drivers earlier but I'm thinking Acoustic Elegance is the $hit right now... I have Volt and JBL 15" woofers here too and they seem like toys next to the AE TD15H+. The AEs bass measures a good bit less distortion vs my reference speakers, Pioneer S-1EX, and admittedly the bass isn't the strong point in that speaker but the difference is striking. They keep up with the 102 dB horns effortlessly and seamlessly, it's pretty awesome really... And that's in cheap test cabinets... I am not sure I've heard a better woofer...

EDIT: you guys posted a whole page while I wrote this ^, settle down!

Yeah those look like pretty good woofers.

 

[KeithR]

I'm running my 102 dB horn off a 300 wpc digital amp right now, it's fantastic. Digital amps don't need to be turned up to sound good like big transistor amps usually do, and if called upon to deliver power, they can without distortion.

I'm also running my 15" woofer off a 600W D amp, with excellent results.

The thing about speakers like the JBL and also the speaker I'm designing, is they can play very loud. My speakers can take about 900 watts with an overall sensitivity around 95 dB. Do the math, 120 dB peaks are effortless... I think the JBLs can take 300W, still very loud. there's no point in owning a speaker with those kinds of SPL capabilities if you're never going to use them

Bliz, that was a nice list of drivers earlier but I'm thinking Acoustic Elegance is the $hit right now... I have Volt and JBL 15" woofers here too and they seem like toys next to the AE TD15H+. The AEs bass measures a good bit less distortion vs my reference speakers, Pioneer S-1EX, and admittedly the bass isn't the strong point in that speaker but the difference is striking. They keep up with the 102 dB horns effortlessly and seamlessly, it's pretty awesome really... And that's in cheap test cabinets... I am not sure I've heard a better woofer...

EDIT: you guys posted a whole page while I wrote this ^, settle down!

Nelson Pass, as you probably know, designs First Watt on custom horns. I would love to hear your opinion on them since you run high efficiency speakers. Unlike Blizzard, you have experience in this arena.

 

[KeithR]

Pretty easy to feel that way when you don't have a clue.

Any more personal attacks today?

 

[Folsom]

You can get some distortion from a low powered amplifier with a high efficiency speaker. The question is will you hear it? For example the level of volume required for a human to hear where a lower power amp can no longer appear to properly power a speaker set that is 87db, probably isn't too loud. But you swap to 91db speakers that don't have any big impedance swings, or compress early, and that point can come at an uncomfortable volume in smaller to somewhat medium sized rooms.

The reality is you're actually better off calling it clipping. What defines a good amplifier from a bad amplifier is what the clipping sounds like as much as anything else, most of the time. One amplifier will clip and sound awful, another will clip and be totally unheard by the listener if not preferred for the character it gives that isn't identifiable as clipping.

The JBL-4367 can only handle 300w. Into 6ohm's that's actually a fair bit of heat. But just to note with very high crest factor the speakers can't actually play the full dynamic range of some music at high volumes. This doesn't mean anything really, because you can't distinguish a 600w snap of a snare drum from a 300w one, while you're listening to 10w average in a normal room without a reference between the two at different volumes. Frankly it'll sound the appropriate volume as far as you can tell. That and it'll be too loud for you to do "critical" listening.

Sensitivity ratings are not worthless. They might appear that way for various reason. Impedance dips are a problem, but also resonations (electrical) can utterly sink current and they're fairly unpredictable unless you're designing the speaker and the amplifier together.

You can try to define what amplifier you want all day long with power and distortion ratings, but you really just need to listen. Ask Steve W, who has some of the highest distortion amps in the high end arena. You couldn't pry those beauties from his cold dead hands, as I understand it.

 

[KeithR]

I've heard hundreds of SS amps on efficient speakers. I was discussing a most recent audition.

but you've never had a low power amp on high efficiency speakers at home.

if auditions count, then my Mola Mola experience should as well, no?

 

[Blizzard]

Hi Blizzard,

I've seen these amps before and thought about getting them. Do you like them? Are there any other amps that you recommend?

Thanks!

Joe

They are phenomenal for the price. I have the guts from them sitting right here on my desk. Only weak area is the LM4562 IC opamp based input buffers. They sound good, and that's what 98% of class D amps on the commercial market use, but class A discrete circuits are better. Much warmer and richer sounding, yet still measure great.

This amp with the Sparko labs discrete opamp based input buffer is a much better choice. I pretty much designed this buffer for this guy. So I know it's good. Much nicer case, power button and connectors as well. Good guy too. You can also order is with the exact same input buffer that Acoustic Imagery uses as well. Then you have the same amp in a nicer case.

http://www.iqspeakers.co.uk/#!hypex-amps/avuyk

 

[KeithR]

You can get some distortion from a low powered amplifier with a high efficiency speaker. The question is will you hear it?

You can try to define what amplifier you want all day long with power and distortion ratings, but you really just need to listen. Ask Steve W, who has some of the highest distortion amps in the high end arena. You couldn't pry those beauties from his cold dead hands, as I understand it.

Steve's tube amps don't put a lot of distortion out at low powers. that's the point. Ralph has talked about this numerous times as I recall.

 

[Blizzard]

but you've never had a low power amp on high efficiency speakers at home.

if auditions count, then my Mola Mola experience should as well, no?

The problem here is you're saying a blanket statement that "class D amps are poor for efficient speakers" assuming all class D amps are the same. That's just like saying all class A/B amps are the same, or all Class A amps. It's completely ridiculous.

 

[joeinid]

Thank you so much. I'll look through the website and contact the seller for info/pricing.

This is pretty new to me, but I am very curious.

I appreciate the links.

They are phenomenal for the price. I have the guts from them sitting right here on my desk. Only weak area is the LM4562 IC opamp based input buffers. They sound good, and that's what 98% of class D amps on the commercial market use, but class A discrete circuits are better. Much warmer and richer sounding, yet still measure great.

This amp with the Sparko labs discrete opamp based input buffer is a much better choice. I pretty much designed this buffer for this guy. So I know it's good. Much nicer case, power button and connectors as well. Good guy too. You can also order is with the exact same input buffer that Acoustic Imagery uses as well. Then you have the same amp in a nicer case.

http://www.iqspeakers.co.uk/#!hypex-amps/avuyk

 

[Folsom]

Steve's tube amps don't put a lot of distortion out at low powers. that's the point. Ralph has talked about this numerous times as I recall.

You can't hear it at low or high power numbers.

 

[Blizzard]

Thank you so much. I'll look through the website and contact the seller for info/pricing.

This is pretty new to me, but I am very curious.

I appreciate the links.

No problem. You will be blown away by these for sure. They will kill $4500 Bel Canto Ref600m's. Same amp modules on the Bel Canto's and power supply, (same power supply as the Mola Mola Kaluga) only use very simple IC opamp based buffer stage with IC voltage regulators:



Compare to the Nord's, he uses the killer Hypex HxR voltage regulators, Sparko Lab's SS3602 discrete opamps (run in class a through the whole range) and all the connectors are the best quality Samtec Phosphor bronze with thick gold plating. I know because I sent him all the links for the parts. They are all the best available, nobody uses these too expensive. And it's designed so you can swap the opamps, to tune the sound to your own subjective taste. Just like tube rolling. They are socketed, just unplug and swap. He has the Burson option as well, but the Sparko's are better IMO.

 

[KeithR]

The problem here is you're saying a blanket statement that "class D amps are poor for efficient speakers" assuming all class D amps are the same. That's just like saying all class A/B amps are the same, or all Class A amps. It's completely ridiculous.

but you've never heard a good First Watt, SS amp in your system. your only example was some noisy tube amp, which doesn't matter to me.

 

[Blizzard]

but you've never heard a good First Watt, SS amp in your system. your only example was some noisy tube amp, which doesn't matter to me.

There's other first watt owners on the Hypex Ncore thread on diyaudio. They tossed them after hearing the Ncores.

 

[KeithR]

There's other first watt owners on the Hypex Ncore thread on diyaudio. They tossed them after hearing the Ncores.

and I really don't care as I don't know their experience, speakers, or implementation. if you're implementation is the best, I've offered to demo your amps vs. my current SS reference and put forth a detailed review for all on WBF to read. in fact, you can proofread the review before its posted. i've been interested in Class D for years, as you can see by my posted experience.

 

[joeinid]

Cool!

Am I correct in assuming that a pair with all the options will run around $2K-2.5K? I do want the warmer sound of the Sparko (?) op amp.

No problem. You will be blown away by these for sure. They will kill $4500 Bel Canto Ref600m's. Same amp modules on the Bel Canto's and power supply, (same power supply as the Mola Mola Kaluga) only use very simple IC opamp based buffer stage with IC voltage regulators:

View attachment 25627

Compare to the Nord's, he uses the killer Hypex HxR voltage regulators, Sparko Lab's SS3602 discrete opamps (run in class a through the whole range) and all the connectors are the best quality Samtec Phosphor bronze with thick gold plating. I know because I sent him all the links for the parts. They are all the best available, nobody uses these too expensive. And it's designed so you can swap the opamps, to tune the sound to your own subjective taste. Just like tube rolling. They are socketed, just unplug and swap. He has the Burson option as well, but the Sparko's are better IMO.

View attachment 25630

 

[Blizzard]

wrong distortion, dude.

Need 1W IMD specs?

From the Bel Canto ref600M:

IMD (CCIF): 0.0003%, 1W, 14:15KHz, 4 ohms