I would guess so. I can't say for sure because the way Geddes and Harman report polar plots is different so it's hard to compare. But just the eyeball test says they should be similar designs.
Jbl 4367
- Thread starter dallasjustice
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They ARE very similar, both using a constant directivity design for the upper part of the frequency range. An explanation in my blog article on constant directivity horn waveguide speakers.
Main difference I know is that the JBL waveguides are wider dispersion than the ones that Geddes uses.
Interesting article and comments as well. Thanks Nyal.
I really like the super aggressive toe in with these speakers. I also notice the vertical soundstage is way more accurate than other speakers I've had in my room. Some music has very significant vertical information. However, some speakers tend to exaggerate the vertical plane; eg. Line arrays, mega big dynamic speakers or tall ESL speakers. Some other speakers aren't very resolving in the vertical plane. The 4367 seems to get the vertical image right. Some music has a huge vertical plane and the 4367 presents that very well. Other music leaves everything at ear height and the 4367 seems to leave it there; no exaggerated image height.
I really like the super aggressive toe in with these speakers. I also notice the vertical soundstage is way more accurate than other speakers I've had in my room. Some music has very significant vertical information. However, some speakers tend to exaggerate the vertical plane; eg. Line arrays, mega big dynamic speakers or tall ESL speakers. Some other speakers aren't very resolving in the vertical plane. The 4367 seems to get the vertical image right. Some music has a huge vertical plane and the 4367 presents that very well. Other music leaves everything at ear height and the 4367 seems to leave it there; no exaggerated image height.
Not to change the subject, but I agree that there are differences in speakers/room setups as to the vertical height image. It might be controversial to many, because the mechanism to cause it is not entirely clear in conventional 2-channel or Mch. It might be largely the result of ceiling bounce reflections coupled with speaker dispersion. Although, I have used ESL panels for years that had it, and I still do, and they have little energy going upwards. I heard it in my old room with 11-17' sloping ceilings, and I hear it now with the same ESL speakers with an irregular 8--18' ceiling.
I do not find it artificial sounding in my setup, and I swear I can often tell if an orchestra is tiered on risers vs. a flat floor. I like it. I never get the impression of a constant, artificial vertical stretch. A good friend with Wilsons cannot obtain anything like the same effect on his system from the same recordings, involving his 18' ceilings. But, he and I both hear it clearly on mine.
Years ago, there was a Chesky test CD that had tracks of successive test tones specifically recorded moving up the left side, across the top, and down the right side. My old Martin Logan CLS IIz's did a pretty decent, though not perfect, job of reproducing that in my old high ceiling room.
I have little listening experience so far with Auro 3D, but that technology seems focused on including a more accurate height dimension via discrete speakers 30 degrees above the ears. I like the idea.
I do not find it artificial sounding in my setup, and I swear I can often tell if an orchestra is tiered on risers vs. a flat floor. I like it. I never get the impression of a constant, artificial vertical stretch. A good friend with Wilsons cannot obtain anything like the same effect on his system from the same recordings, involving his 18' ceilings. But, he and I both hear it clearly on mine.
Years ago, there was a Chesky test CD that had tracks of successive test tones specifically recorded moving up the left side, across the top, and down the right side. My old Martin Logan CLS IIz's did a pretty decent, though not perfect, job of reproducing that in my old high ceiling room.
I have little listening experience so far with Auro 3D, but that technology seems focused on including a more accurate height dimension via discrete speakers 30 degrees above the ears. I like the idea.
I heard an Auro 3d setup demo thing , the settings were wrong , it felt like we were listening from the bottom of a pit and when tweaked right , the vertical imaging was amazingly lifelike
I like the idea too, multiple speakers not for reproducing the whole performance but for audio effect of some kind.
Added as a supplement to your rig, not a whole new system. great!
There is not much point in Auro 3D if you do not also go Mch surround. It builds from a 5.1 or 7.1 Mch 2D system, which is now what I listen to almost entirely for music. The height speakers then go in above those. So, we are talking a lot of speakers and amps plus a pricey processor to deliver it all, either from discrete recordings or synthesized from stereo or Mch source material. It is not a trivial undertaking. There are currently only a handful of discrete Auro 3D music recordings in existence. There may be more movies using it.
As a classical music listener, I do not want "effects" and I would never buy something for that reason. I want a closer approach to concert hall realism. For me, conventional 2D 5.1/7.1 Mch now delivers that vs. stereo. The jury is still out on whether Auro 3D delivers that significantly better by going into the height dimension. I can see where it might, but Auro needs to survive the battles in the marketplace with Dolby Atmos and DTS, neither of which are well suited to music, which Auro is.
Sorry for the digression from the JBL speakers.
If Geddes' own statements are true, that wider dispersion should be pretty dramatic. Geddes has said that his speakers deliberately narrow dispersion to minimize first reflections. Harman has stated that they have a fundamental belief in broad dispersion with smooth off-axis response. I think that difference would trump any design similarities they might have. Do you only listen in the sweet spot, in a treated, dedicated room? One design, the Geddes, might be better for you. Do you play music in a domestic environment to fill your home and your life with music? The JBLs might be the better choice. I spent years listening in the sweet spot, with a near-field set up. I've joined the latter club and it feels very good to be back, frankly.
Tim
Hello Tim
You have to look at both designs they are similar but different. The JBL’s are designed to be used on axis and +- 30 for their recommended listening window. Earl’s speakers are not designed to be used on axis. Their sweet spot is 10-30 degrees off axis. Because of the symmetry of his waveguide, which are round, they have an on axis dip in the response based on the waveguide size. You can see it in his polar plots. With both systems toed in that 10-30 degree window they should be very similar. Even though the JBL’s do have a wider pattern all you have to do to adjust the ratio of direct to reflected is set the JBL’s up so you are more on axis which you can do because they don’t have the on axis dip. If you look at the power response and from experience with Revel Performa 206's and JBL Array 1400's and their pro waveguides they are very consistent sounding through out the room.
Rob
You have to look at both designs they are similar but different. The JBL’s are designed to be used on axis and +- 30 for their recommended listening window. Earl’s speakers are not designed to be used on axis. Their sweet spot is 10-30 degrees off axis. Because of the symmetry of his waveguide, which are round, they have an on axis dip in the response based on the waveguide size. You can see it in his polar plots. With both systems toed in that 10-30 degree window they should be very similar. Even though the JBL’s do have a wider pattern all you have to do to adjust the ratio of direct to reflected is set the JBL’s up so you are more on axis which you can do because they don’t have the on axis dip. If you look at the power response and from experience with Revel Performa 206's and JBL Array 1400's and their pro waveguides they are very consistent sounding through out the room.
Rob
Hello Tim
You have to look at both designs they are similar but different. The JBL’s are designed to be used on axis and +- 30 for their recommended listening window. Earl’s speakers are not designed to be used on axis. Their sweet spot is 10-30 degrees off axis. Because of the symmetry of his waveguide, which are round, they have an on axis dip in the response based on the waveguide size. You can see it in his polar plots. With both systems toed in that 10-30 degree window they should be very similar. Even though the JBL’s do have a wider pattern all you have to do to adjust the ratio of direct to reflected is set the JBL’s up so you are more on axis which you can do because they don’t have the on axis dip. If you look at the power response and from experience with Revel Performa 206's and JBL Array 1400's and their pro waveguides they are very consistent sounding through out the room.
Rob
Is this no also true of the 4367?
Tim
Hello Tim
Yes for the most part the only exception would be up in the last octave only because the Arrays have a true compression driver tweeter in its own horn above the midrange horn.Helps the dispersion up top where the larger horns are starting to narrow. You can see it in the directivity curve.
Rob
Yes for the most part the only exception would be up in the last octave only because the Arrays have a true compression driver tweeter in its own horn above the midrange horn.Helps the dispersion up top where the larger horns are starting to narrow. You can see it in the directivity curve.
Rob
just discovered this thread after you told me about your new speakers, Michael. very curious about listening to your system again.
You are welcome over anytime Andre. I just had a marathon subwoofer setup session with Uli yesterday. We tried a couple of exotic sub setups. Turns out the simple Welti 2 sub midwall was the best setup.
Exactly Nyal. We tried a variety of source/sink. The problem with source/sink is the medicine is worse than the cure.
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