Not an easy life my friend..drink some Tokai while sorting them out and rolling
Lampizator announcement: launch of our all new TOTL HORIZON DAC
- Thread starter Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus
- Start date
I’m not from Hungary but i like something else HungarianI am from Hungary. I do like wine
they are wired up together piggy backed off the main xlr plugs so yes the same signal
I run my sub outputs into a headphone amp and the sound quality is as good as the main XLR outputs which I run into my power amp/speakers.
You may have seen my posts on various sites regarding the importance of absolute phase in high resolution systems. A scant few systems provide the capability of selecting between the two absolute phase settings for a given recording. My preamp/controller (a passive unit) was customized so that I can select between +/- and -/+ ("normal and inverted) using the unit's remote. I don't want to get into the details of sonic differences between "correct" and "incorrect" absolute phase here, but the key point is that there is not a consistent configuration for any given recording. You just have to use your ears to select the right setting. Don't worry, once you hear the difference, you'll be able to make the selection in a few seconds, thanks especially to the Horizon's remarkable range and quality of bass.
Now for the good news. I've had my Horizon for close to a year, but it was only now that I realized that Lukasz has provided us with a feature that can, with a trivial hardware tweak, allow a suitable preamp/controller to support absolute phase selection on the fly. If the unit has a remote, it's likely the absolute phase selection would be selectable with no modification to the remote since you're only switching between preamp/controller input.
What is the requirement to get absolute phase control? This implementation is based on my system which is fully balanced from the Horizon DAC; to the preamp/controller; to balanced amplifiers. The trick is to leverage the two sets of the Horizon's outputs, "Out" and "Sub". Connect both pairs of Horizon's outputs to your preamp/controller with the Horizon's "Out" left & right routed to, say, the preamp's input 1 connections. Similarly the Horizon's "Sub" left & right connections are routed to the preamp's input 2 connections. The only physical change needed to the preamp is to reverse the input connections for one input set (e.g. input 2). This means that the balanced inputs for that one modified input pair will have the + and - inputs reversed to - and +. Note, nothing is modified on the Horizon.
The result is the ability to toggle the absolute phase setting simply by selecting between input 1 and input 2 from your listening location. This makes it easier to identify the differences and select the appropriate absolute phase setting.
This should work similarly for single ended connections, but that might involve a transformer in the process. I'll leave that to another Horizon owner's adventure.
Now for the good news. I've had my Horizon for close to a year, but it was only now that I realized that Lukasz has provided us with a feature that can, with a trivial hardware tweak, allow a suitable preamp/controller to support absolute phase selection on the fly. If the unit has a remote, it's likely the absolute phase selection would be selectable with no modification to the remote since you're only switching between preamp/controller input.
What is the requirement to get absolute phase control? This implementation is based on my system which is fully balanced from the Horizon DAC; to the preamp/controller; to balanced amplifiers. The trick is to leverage the two sets of the Horizon's outputs, "Out" and "Sub". Connect both pairs of Horizon's outputs to your preamp/controller with the Horizon's "Out" left & right routed to, say, the preamp's input 1 connections. Similarly the Horizon's "Sub" left & right connections are routed to the preamp's input 2 connections. The only physical change needed to the preamp is to reverse the input connections for one input set (e.g. input 2). This means that the balanced inputs for that one modified input pair will have the + and - inputs reversed to - and +. Note, nothing is modified on the Horizon.
The result is the ability to toggle the absolute phase setting simply by selecting between input 1 and input 2 from your listening location. This makes it easier to identify the differences and select the appropriate absolute phase setting.
This should work similarly for single ended connections, but that might involve a transformer in the process. I'll leave that to another Horizon owner's adventure.
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The first professional review of the Horizon DAC, by the esteemed Greg Weaver has gone live!
LampizatOr Horizon DAC Review A new benchmark! Review By Greg Weaver Of Enjoy the Music.com
LampizatOr Horizon DAC Review A new benchmark! Review By Greg Weaver Of Enjoy the Music.com
www.enjoythemusic.com
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Fred. now that Greg has experienced the greatness of the Horizon, it's time to start sending him some of your private stash of tubes so that he can really get a feel for it's greatness
Glowing review, as the Horizon deserves.
Greg: "My listening with the direct output from the Horizon was virtually identical to my experience using my line stage"
Greg's $46,000 True Life SSP-1 pre amp did not (clearly) outperform the Horizon DAC-direct.
I wonder how much you need to spend on a pre amp to substantially outperform the Horizon DAC-direct. Has anyone heard (of) any such pre amp?
I think it vastly depends on the amp that has to be driven
Not sure if I fully understand what you mean, could you elaborate a bit please?
The issues are system gain matching, preamp (Horizon output) to amp input impedance compatibility, and related tonality. An amp which may be a challenge to drive properly because it needs linear current drive into a complex impedance may perform better with a preamp which can drive more like an amplifier itself. Although the Horizon has great sound quality, it doesn’t drive difficult loads well. Bass response may suffer, or possibly other performance areas.
The Horizon volume control doesn’t have enough attenuation in my system. My amp has an input sensitivity of only 1.0v for 100 watts of output. My speakers are 99db sensitive. So I can’t turn it down enough to play quiet, which is my typical level. But the speakers can easily handle 100 watts. Another volume control in the system would bring more available attenuation, but at a reduction in sound quality. I’ve tried a couple different preamps and an EMIA passive. The EMIA was best, but still has an audible reduction in SQ. These are issues I’m still sorting out. A lower powered amp with numerically higher input sensitivity may be the answer, or an integrated.
Using the Horizon without a pre limits system flexibility. I’m still looking for the right Goldilocks amp.
The Horizon volume control doesn’t have enough attenuation in my system. My amp has an input sensitivity of only 1.0v for 100 watts of output. My speakers are 99db sensitive. So I can’t turn it down enough to play quiet, which is my typical level. But the speakers can easily handle 100 watts. Another volume control in the system would bring more available attenuation, but at a reduction in sound quality. I’ve tried a couple different preamps and an EMIA passive. The EMIA was best, but still has an audible reduction in SQ. These are issues I’m still sorting out. A lower powered amp with numerically higher input sensitivity may be the answer, or an integrated.
Using the Horizon without a pre limits system flexibility. I’m still looking for the right Goldilocks amp.
I do struggle to read between the lines with the 6moons man but there is a discussion (is review too loose a label
) on an upcoming Icon passive 4 step slagle based autoformer attenuator called Matchmaker which will have options of copper, silver and nickel or nano-crystalline to help high efficiency systems owners wanting to attenuate for high output sources.Apologies in advance if this is a wild goose chase but deciphering Srajaen always leaves me both dizzy and confused
Hope this in some way helps.Icon matchmaker Icon 5 and icon pure
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Could you translate you amp's input sensitivity from 1v for 100 watts to Ohms? My amp is 200K Ohm. The manual states the Horizon likes high input impedances.
Thanks Tao, I’ll look into this further. The Icon are similar to the EMIA because they both use the Slagle autoformer guts. Mine is the copper version. Silver would be the way to go but that’s over $10k total with a proper interconnect. For now it seems better to put those funds into the amp upgrade.I do struggle to read between the lines with the 6moons man but there is a discussion (is review too loose a label
Apologies in advance if this is a wild goose chase but deciphering Srajaen always leaves me both dizzy and confused
Icon matchmaker Icon 5 and icon pure
I’m living with the gain mismatch because the sound quality is actually pretty good. Very 3D in the most defined manner I’ve ever heard. The only wish is for better bass - below 50hz - and this is mostly a room issue. This SMC amp (Steve McCormack) is a highly modified DNA 0.5 and is wonderful for the money. This actually makes an upgrade amp choice very challenging. Don’t want to spend $20-30k and then realize a mistake. Electrically, an LTA Ultralinear looks like a perfect match, but they do have a leanness that doesn’t suit my room. Recall I used to run a pair of these in mono with my other speakers. In time…
I do enjoy Srajean’s writing, but need to turn the scan speed down to the lowest setting, then read it again
. Still much better than most of the simple minded fluff out there.
My current amp has 100k input impedance. As Al said, this is unrelated to the other parameters. The Horizon has no issues driving this amp. Staying above 20k is recommended, but this isn’t straight forward as complex impedance can be an issue too. The H has driven all of the amps I’ve tried so far without issue, other than gain. But there are quite a few high end amps that have low input impedance - Thomas Mayer, Gryphon, Constellation to name a few. Each of these manufacturers also makes excellent preamps that match well with their amps. So this supports the preamp approach. Too simple of a solution? Maybe.
Easy enough to test.
1) Using the normal "Out-Left" (top) and "Out-Right" (bottom), run a stereo source normally . Note the L/R position of some instruments.
Using the "Sub-Out" (top) and "Sub-Out" (bottom), play the same segment. Are the L/R positions of those instruments the same? They are on my Horizon. So, regarding L/R, the Sub terminals are consistent with the normal terminals with Left on top and Right on bottom.
2) Using the normal connections, play a mono source. When seated at the exact midpoint listening position you should hear the sound coming exactly from the midpoint between the speakers.
Switch only one output from the standard connection to the adjacent "Sub" connection. Play the mono source again. Does the sound still come from the exact midpoint between the speakers, it should. If the mono "center" image point shifts left or right, then there is a different volume level between the normal terminals and the "Sub" pair. On my system that midpoint is exactly the same. You could try using a dB meter, but I've found that the ear/brain system can detect very slight differences in L/R positioning.
Summary. I can detect no difference between using the normal "Out-Left" "Out-Right" pair and the "Sub-Out" pair. One difference is that making the first connection swap, there is a temporary difference given that I've been running the normal outputs for close to a year and have never used the "Sub-Out" pair. That difference goes away after the sub pair of connections get exercised carrying a signal.
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