LampizatOr Horizon - Tube Rolling Paradise

[rspyder]

Hi all, who own and enjoy Lampi's Horizon. I'm back in Calgary, but after getting off the plane at -4 F/-20 C, I wished I was hanging out at Will's place for a few more days.

I'd echo Will's comment that this is a great group of knowledgeable, passionate and conscientious audiophiles. None finer than Will in my opinion. He and his wife were gracious hosts and it was a delight to listen to his (their) system, in which he has put a lot of thought and care. Not surprisingly, it sounds great!

The tube rolling showdown at Chez Will's was an ear opener. I have tried the stock Psvane 6SN7 converter tubes (shipped with the Horizon), Psvane 12AU7, NOS/NIB Valvo, Thomson 5687csf and Telefunken 802S (Ulm production). My favourite so far are the Telefunken. Listening to the Brimar 13D9 on Will's system rendered a similar sonic signature: mid to forward sound complimented by a wider and deeper soundstage, a fully palpable presentation across the response range, with very good separation and a tighter slightly deeper bottom end.

In making comparisons, the obvious problem is different systems. So, it was very generous of Will to lend me a pair of the Brimar 13D9 tubes, so I can compare them to the 802s. I had to order adapters for the Brimar 12AT7 variant, which will take a few weeks to arrive. After that I will run a comparison between the two legendary tubes and report out to this group.

I have just set up my Antipodes Oladra (replacing a K50) and I will write a review of that experience after break in, on the WBF Oladra thread. I will just quickly mention that, as others have reported, the Oldara's out-of-the-box performance has surpassed my fully broken in K50. And the K50 is singularly impressive!

Lastly, getting back to my Horizon, I have a preference for the Sophia Electric "Blue" 274B over the Takatsuki 274A/B. Another Will suggestion. However, once I find my sweet-spot H converter tube I will reintroduce the TA-274 to re-evaluate synergy.

Thanks again Will! Have a great day all!

 

[marty]

I've spent time recently re-evaluating some rectis in my Horizon. I have an engraved WE 274b for sale as well as a Tak 274b. Both sonically superb and at the very top of the recti pyramid, but not nirvana for me in my system. Please PM me if interested.

 

[Sampajanna]

I've spent time recently re-evaluating some rectis in my Horizon. I have an engraved WE 274b for sale as well as a Tak 274b. Both sonically superb and at the very top of the recti pyramid, but not nirvana for me in my system. Please PM me if interested.

What did you end up with?

 

[Willgolf]

The latest shootout....Brimar 13D9 vs NOS RCA 6922 Gold Pin from the 60's. The 6922 was a super good tube with tremendous clarity and transparency. I could live with this tube. It is just hard to beat the Brimar due to the increased gain of the tube.

The next shootout will be an ECC88 Bugle Boy vs Brimar but maybe I will try against the RCA seeing that they are the same derivative.

 

[Sampajanna]

I just got the 6384s. Gonna pit them against the KT170s. I am finding that nothing compares to the EEC31/32 in the center.,… Also, gonna try a WA422 recti soon.

 

[rspyder]

Interesting! So have you tried both ECC31 and ECC32 tubes. They are different tubes and an ECC31 is even more dissimilar to a 6SN7. I also thought the the 31 and 32 had a reputation of being bass shy. I take it that wasn't your experience in the Horizon.

Further to my March 10th post, thanks to Will, I conducted a shoot-out between the Brimar 13D9 and the Telefunken 802S as converter tubes in my Horizon. As I mentioned to Will, it's difficult to set up the two in a perfectly controlled A - B analysis because a 12AU7 tube has a gain factor of 20 and the 13D9 (a variant of a 12AT7) has a gain of factor of 60. To compensate for the difference I used a basic sound meter without being to granular and precise because a bit of volume bump will not elevate the true sonic character of a tube unless it's a very close tie.

In this case it wasn't. The Brimar rendered (for me and my taste) a richer, warmer and fuller enhancement to the Horizon's "core" sound. What impressed me is that the Brimar still preserves the Horizon's clarity of detail, including crisp authentic highs (sharp piano notes and cymbals), without being washed out by what we sometimes call tubiness.

The Telefunken 802s is an excellent choice as a converter tube for the Horizon too. It has many of the sonic characteristics of the Brimar (e.g. slightly forward rich sound, deep and wide soundstage), and for some may be preferable. If you have a system with higher gain than most, then the 12AU7 will provide more range on your volume control over the Brimar or other 12AT7/ECC81 tubes. If you gravitate to a slightly tighter, leaner sound with more transient punch then the Thomson CSF 5687 may be more pleasing. In my system, the Telefunken lies between the Brimar and the Thomson. In Goldilocks' terms, not too soft and not too hard.

That last point brings me to my final comment. Obviously, my tube findings are system and listener specific. The most important consideration is that the core sound and overall sonic performance of the Horizon is outstanding in every respect. Lukasz' seamless and effective integration of a DHT analog stage in his signature DAC allows users the ability to tune the edges of the core. As this WBF thread attests, that's pretty cool. And fun.

 

[Sampajanna]

I am finding the 31 and 32 very, very similar, so folks may want to save money and get 31… They are both my top choices currently. No issues with bass and very fulll, smooth sound. I rank the Sylvania metal base just behind them and the TS 6SN7 just below the Sylvania. I just added the 6384s and find them a step up from KT170s. Very obvious upgrade in sound. Less attack, but richer and smoother with bigger soundstage and open sound. Also, darker/blacker backgrounds. I like the Tak and Frankie so far of the recti I tried, including a Brimar, Sophia blue and KR 5U4G. I am getting a WE 4a22 soon. I suspect the 6384, ECC32 and WE 4A22 to be endgame for me… I will let you guys know when I roll that combo, but I suspect it will come out champion… And yes, rolling is SO MUCH FUN in the Horizon. Lukasz is Yoda!!

 

[Golum]

Glad you like the 6384 but there is also a new (old) kid on the block being a killer option…

 

[Sampajanna]

What is it? Tell me more, tell me more…. I am rolling away into paradise My buddy suggested putting the Sylvania back in withe the 6384, so that is the next experiment.

 

[rspyder]

Getting a matched quad of NOS/NIB 6384s must have been a bit of a challenge. Good on you!

I forgot to mention that I did try the Sophia Electric KT88s in the "power seats" and that tube produced similar results to your experience with the 6384s. Very holographic (e.g. a bit more hall-effect and sonic sustain) and pleasantly warm, but not over the top. They maintained very good tonal accuracy, balance and response, which may be more attributable to the voicing Horizon's core DAC chip "ENGINE ELEVEN".

The problem or limitation I face is my Berlin R Mk-III speakers are bass shy relative to my prior ProAc K6s, so even though the Sophia Electrics have a bit more bottom and grip than garden variety KT88's they still come up wanting against the KT170. As for speed, the KT170s outpace the KT88 . If your amp and speakers produce prodigious bass then the SE KT88s may be a reasonable alternative for those who can't find a matched quad of 6384s.

 

[heihei]

Picked up a pair of Kenrad VT231 black glass 1940's tubes this afternoon - OMG! Think these eclipse the RCA 5692 red bases I was using previously. Where next??
For ref, other tubes are TS KT170's and RK 5u4g anniversary.

 

[heihei]

Re: ECC 32 - there's currently 4 different types on Ebay Uk at the moment:
3 different black plate getters (D, pan, dimple foil), and 1 grey plate getter (rectangular)

Anyone know if these sound different??

 

[Sampajanna]

Here are mine, if it helps. I find the 31 very close. May want to save money and get those.

 

[Stbo]

Here are mine, if it helps. I find the 31 very close. May want to save money and get those.

View attachment 106976

Then you have to run single end?

 

[Sampajanna]

No. ECC31/32 are the two center driver tubes—6SN7 substitutes.
31 need adapters. 32 dont

 

[Golum]

After a short "break" from tube rolling, disease returned in the mild form, but this time driven by as he/or I named it Lampi "brotherhood" member @takacs75 . He sits on a wealth of knowledge of his co-patriot, who by his family roots, was one of the founding parties of well known tube/valve producer "Tungsram" from Hungary. As such he does not have only his family roots rooted in Tungsram, but he is on top super knowledgeable about tubes, their construction details, production facilities, materials used in production, etc. which he often shares across different tube related groups on FB. Did I mention he is a huge collector on top?
As such Laszlo came with a proposal to send me a quad of Tungsram OS1 pentode tubes. I guess not many heard about them, as I for sure didn't, and I'm/was chasing kind of out of ordinary tubes to be used in Lampi DACs.
OS1 is a member of EL50 family of tubes, which I've seen consists of the ones I mentioned, 4654 (more common) and French produced SFR P17c pentode. Info about those tubes is scarce over the web and I could not dig out more data except for the link I'll share below.
Crazy enough and unrelated to the offer/shipment from Laszlo my French supplier of rare tube gems (Francois) out of nowhere pinged me one day and said I'm sending you something special which proved to be P17c - I mean seriously?? Out of the blue two "same" tubes from two different sources, how often this happens?
Anyways procurement wise I would say OS1 and SFR are more difficult to procure, while what I have managed to see is that Tesla 4654 can be found (still). I did not check for el50 TBH. All those types need an adapter from 4654 to el34 (as they use European side base (P8a)) which of course is again easily attainable from our well known supplier in China (guy made a fortune on Lampi lunatics ).
Few important details about el50 can be read here: http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/EL50/index.htm
On the tubes and differences in their construction I can't say much as Tesla has not a visible tube construction while Tungsram has two different ones and SFR I've seen/has just one type and I'll attach pictures later so you can judge on your own but anode plate looks quite impressive with some mesh section at the top and bottom.
Now going to the SQ contribution in the Horizon. My so far "go back tube" was Bendix 6384 with its speed, details retrieval and very nicely extended both parts of the spectrum with firm bass and tonality which to me was clearly better option than lets say KT170.
What OS1 and P17c are bringing to the table or adding on top of what 6384 is delivering is more musicality, much more pleasant tone (i did not say it was bad at all with 6384!!) and overall palpable presentation with the feeling of "being there".
I did my listening with Mullard ecc32 which will never leave my DAC, not even for trying something else, as to me there is nothing better (for my ears and my system - and I tried A LOT of types) and with Valvo AZ1 or Tungsram AZ1 rectifiers. This entire combo so far is the cream of the cream and I'm not sure I'll be digging for something more, except maybe trying out some new 4V rectifier options where again Laszlo and @Sablon Audio (Mark thanks for the insights from your side) are a great source of inspiration/knowledge and first hand experience. I'm sure Laszlo will chime in with his findings as he also just tonight, tested the difference between OS1 and EL51, while I'm awaiting for my partner in crime @marty with his findings between his favorite Mullard el34 xf2 vs Tesla 4654 where I believe this might give xf2 decent run for the money.
Anyhow dear Lampi brotherhood, I apologize for usually coming up with some rare and almost unobtainable tube options but I guess this makes this game even more interesting and dynamic .

Once again Laszlo thanks for this one!
Some pics as always and happy rolling guys...

 

[marty]

Great note Goran!! My Tesla 4654 has arrived, but I'm still waiting on the adapter which is due to arrive any day now!
We're in complete lock step about the Mullard ecc32. The new Taiko switch has allowed a window in that tube's performance that was even more astonishing than I gave it credit for initially. You'll have to pry that from my cold dead hands...
(I'm currently in the "just one more album before bedtime, please" phase! ) I also picked up the Valvo mesh recti that you and Mark suggested, but am waiting for adapters for those. It's all good! Even better, the Valvo and Tesla are very inexpensive so it will be a pleasure to see what they are all about!

 

[dminches]

Nice find. I have yet to hear anything that I like more than the EL51s (including the Bendix 6384s) but I am always open to new options.

 

[Sampajanna]

Awesome report. I love it! I wonder if you would mind telling us a bit more about the recti you are using there with these tubes.
Thanks again!

Also, I put the Sylvania metal base (which I see as the best 6SN7) back in to see what it would sound like with my new Bendix 6384. Let’s just say I am now back to the ECC32, so with you there.

 

[plasmod3]

Awesome report. I love it! I wonder if you would mind telling us a bit more about the recti you are using there with these tubes.
Thanks again!

Also, I put the Sylvania metal base (which I see as the best 6SN7) back in to see what it would sound like with my new Bendix 6384. Let’s just say I am now back to the ECC32, so with you there.

Looks like you really need a 274b engraved base