Lampizator Horizon v. dCS Vivaldi Apex Listening Comparison

[thedudeabides]

Another good example of the inevitable individual subjectivity and synergy at play. Also reinforces the fact that there is no such thing as "best" in audio.

 

[Holli82]

Two great DACs. Glad we have the opportunity to make these choices. No right or wrong here.

 

[matakana]

UPDATE

I returned to pk_LA's house last night for a re-match of Lampizator Horizon versus dCS Apex. On a track I did not know I failed to identify correctly to which DAC we were listening two out of three times.

Last night it took a track I have heard hundreds of times ("Song of Bernadette" by Jennifer Warnes on Famous Blue Raincoat) to be able to tell the DACs apart.

pk_LA reported to me during the last week varying sound quality from the Horizon as the Horizon broke in since my last visit. Did the Lampizator change or did the dCS change?

Brian Berdan believes that, because the Vivaldi stack pk_LA is auditioning was just upgraded with the Apex circuit board, the Apex circuit board needed breaking in. This is a plausible theory. All I know is that the canyon-like gap in sonic attractiveness I heard between the Horizon and the Apex last week has narrowed very considerably. If I had to quantify it I would say the gap has narrowed by at least 75%, and maybe up to 90%.

I still hear directionally the impressions I reported originally, but the amplitude is much lower. I still hear the Horizon as being more resonant and harmonically rich, but by a much smaller extent. I still hear the Apex as having more treble energy, and the Horizon as being slightly more midrange-focused (which I find more natural and more "correct"). I still hear the Apex as being slightly drier-sounding than the Horizon.

Also there still is nothing sonically I can discern about the Apex which I prefer over the Horizon. (pk_LA told me that on some tracks he now prefers the sound of the Apex.)

I still easily prefer the Horizon over the Apex, but somehow the gaps in what I prefer about the Horizon have narrowed very considerably. And the fact that only a week later I had to dig deep and use a track I am extremely familiar just to tell the DACs apart is puzzling.

PS: Alcohol consumption was identical during both listening sessions.

It will be even more interesting when you re listen in a months time then, if possible! thankyou for the report.

 

[Steve williams]

It will be even more interesting when you re listen in a months time then, if possible! thankyou for the report.

I totally agree. In my conversations with Patrick, IMO the Horizon itself as well as the tubes are not even close to being burned in. So I agree. Lets regroup in a month but all I am reading are impressions of what they hear as the unit and tubes begin to burn in. Having said that I do know that Pat has very few hours on his unit and tubes to make any conclusive comparisons between the two units which BTW I agree as two very fine DAC's.However when discussing tubes you cannot bury your head in the sand and make an announcement based on a unit which likely has 20-30 hours at most and make proclamations.To me, this is nothing more than just a data point. Leave the darn unit on and lets do another comparison in a month.What I am reading is a summation of a brand new unit(s) burning in. It isn't even close yet after my conversations with Pat

 

[Golum]

I totally agree. In my conversations with Patrick, IMO the Horizon itself as well as the tubes are not even close to being burned in. So I agree. Lets regroup in a month but all I am reading are impressions of what they hear as the unit and tubes begin to burn in. Having said that I do know that Pat has very few hours on his unit and tubes to make any conclusive comparisons between the two units which BTW I agree as two very fine DAC's.However when discussing tubes you cannot bury your head in the sand and make an announcement based on a unit which likely has 20-30 hours at most and make proclamations.To me, this is nothing more than just a data point. Leave the darn unit on and lets do another comparison in a month.What I am reading is a summation of a brand new unit(s) burning in. It isn't even close yet after my conversations with Pat

Always interesting point is that when both DACs will reach their apogee in terms of burn in, dCS will remain there (OK cable swapping will do some tricks) whilst Lampi, which I guess is being demoed with stock tubes, can be elevated in performance quite significantly with a few not eye popping ($ wise) tube swaps.

 

[bonzo75]

Always interesting point is that when both DACs will reach their apogee in terms of burn in, dCS will remain there (OK cable swapping will do some tricks) whilst Lampi, which I guess is being demoed with stock tubes, can be elevated in performance quite significantly with few not eye popping tube swaps.

A tube component is being auditioned by two people who have no interest in rolling tubes.

It is like getting a TT report with no interest in changing arms or carts. Except that tube rolling here is much easier, pick out and insert, no need to bias etc.

 

[Golum]

A tube component is being auditioned by two people who have no interest in rolling tubes.

It is like getting a TT report with no interest in changing arms or carts. Except that tube rolling here is much easier, pick out and insert, no need to bias etc.

I don't consider changing tube once/twice for "rolling". Rolling is for "lunatics", this is purely adjusting the DAC for best sonic performance almost as swapping the cable for other brand/type. And here on WBF you can easily select one tube or two tubes which will elevate the SQ much much more then cable swap (IMHO)

 

[microstrip]

I totally agree. In my conversations with Patrick, IMO the Horizon itself as well as the tubes are not even close to being burned in. So I agree. Lets regroup in a month but all I am reading are impressions of what they hear as the unit and tubes begin to burn in. Having said that I do know that Pat has very few hours on his unit and tubes to make any conclusive comparisons between the two units which BTW I agree as two very fine DAC's.However when discussing tubes you cannot bury your head in the sand and make an announcement based on a unit which likely has 20-30 hours at most and make proclamations.To me, this is nothing more than just a data point. Leave the darn unit on and lets do another comparison in a month.What I am reading is a summation of a brand new unit(s) burning in. It isn't even close yet after my conversations with Pat

Just by curiosity - how many hours do you consider that are needed for full burn in of tubes?

I have found that 6h30 stabilize under 100 hours, so I always burn-in new tubes in other equipment before putting them in playback mode in my system - I am not a patient audiophile considering burn-in. Capacitors and other components however seem to take much longer to burn-in.

 

[Steve williams]

Let’s just say more than 20 hours.

 

[Jpspock]

Not enough, at least 100 hours…

 

[Alrainbow]

there are two parts to tube burn I think
one is the heater this might not take long but should be considered
next is the plates this is more complex. they need to do a few things
1 might be plates need to be formed like caps for
2 this is for sure as the tube structure heats up it moves
as it cools it moves
new tube should not be installed and play audio for this reason. Pings and pongs are heard and can be loud if audio is playing
3 is like 1 over a period of time the tube settles in sound I don’t think this can be measured , but very much heard.
Some tubes need more on off cycles to sound best
even recti
now one thing to consider lampi gentle uses out tubes so the burn in make take longer

some say no way snd I get them but like caps it’s a realistic change

 

[microstrip]

there are two parts to tube burn I think
one is the heater this might not take long but should be considered

Why do you think that the heater needs burn-in? As far as I see it heater burn-in is only relevant in direct heated triodes.

next is the plates this is more complex. they need to do a few things
1 might be plates need to be formed like caps for

Cathodes need burn-in to smooth the surface - we can see it as a reduction of very low frequency noise in an analyzer.

2 this is for sure as the tube structure heats up it moves
as it cools it moves
new tube should not be installed and play audio for this reason. Pings and pongs are heard and can be loud if audio is playing
3 is like 1 over a period of time the tube settles in sound I don’t think this can be measured , but very much heard.
Some tubes need more on off cycles to sound best
even recti
now one thing to consider lampi gentle uses out tubes so the burn in make take longer

some say no way snd I get them but like caps it’s a realistic change

I never managed to recover a micro-phonic 6h30 tube - and I have tried freezing and heating them to more than 200ºC!

 

[Alrainbow]

Why do you think that the heater needs burn-in? As far as I see it heater burn-in is only relevant in direct heated triodes.


gases are released as the element burns off the silver cloud is made to absorb this at least it’s what I read

Cathodes need burn-in to smooth the surface - we can see it as a reduction of very low frequency noise in an analyzer.
Now this is mad cool so anyone who hears a change ain’t nuts.

I never managed to recover a micro-phonic 6h30 tube - and I have tried freezing and heating them to more than 200ºC!

wow again imagine playing audio

 

[Alrainbow]

When you said it smooths the plates ? How does it fill
in irregularities on the surface ?
if so why do the older plates looked Almost pitted
? I’m am asking as I know your a high tech person. this always has puzzled me on tubes

 

[microstrip]

When you said it smooths the plates ? How does it fill
in irregularities on the surface ?
if so why do the older plates looked Almost pitted
? I’m am asking as I know your a high tech person. this always has puzzled me on tubes

The cathodes evaporate when they emit electrons - it is why tubes have a finite life. Due to the manufacturing process the cathode surfaces have micro whiskers, that create higher electric field and have higher electron emission, creating noise. As current flow, these whiskers are eliminated and the low frequency noise reduces. Probably at the end of life the plates are pitted due to the negative ions bombardment - but I am not sure of that. A pitted plate will create noise and perhaps discharges.

 

[Lagonda]

The cathodes evaporate when they emit electrons - it is why tubes have a finite life. Due to the manufacturing process the cathode surfaces have micro whiskers, that create higher electric field and have higher electron emission, creating noise. As current flow, these whiskers are eliminated and the low frequency noise reduces. Probably at the end of life the plates are pitted due to the negative ions bombardment - but I am not sure of that. A pitted plate will create noise and perhaps discharges.

Sometimes it is cool to have a professor posting on WBF !

 

[matakana]

The cathodes evaporate when they emit electrons - it is why tubes have a finite life. Due to the manufacturing process the cathode surfaces have micro whiskers, that create higher electric field and have higher electron emission, creating noise. As current flow, these whiskers are eliminated and the low frequency noise reduces. Probably at the end of life the plates are pitted due to the negative ions bombardment - but I am not sure of that. A pitted plate will create noise and perhaps discharges.

Wow the cat’s whiskers, thats why I like tubes!

 

[Ron Resnick]

It is like getting a TT report with no interest in changing arms or carts. Except that tube rolling here is much easier, pick out and insert, no need to bias etc.

Actually, it is not like getting a turntable. I think this simply is a defective analogy.

A turntable that pk_LA or I would be getting would not come from the factory with a stock cartridge and a stock tonearm. The Lampizator Horizon comes with stock tubes. There is no reason to believe that Lucasz puts anything other than appropriate tubes in his flagship product.

 

[Golum]

There is no reason to believe that Lucasz puts anything other than appropriate tubes in his flagship product.

He absolutely puts best there is from current readily and sustainably available production tubes which does not mean those new production tubes are better then certain NOS ones.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I know it is challenging sometimes for people to get out of their own "head-spaces" and to try to understand another point of view. Buying a tube component and wanting to improve the subjective performance of the product according to one's subjective sonic preferences by swapping in different tubes is valid.

Also valid is wanting to buy a fully completed and finished product as it comes from the factory -- and not making any changes to it.