My experience with Lampizator Pacific echoes this issue. Like many, I went nuts initially with tube rolling and quickly ran into a series of bad tubes that kept blowing. I learned my lesson. I stick to trusted tubes only now. I am using KR RK 242s with the KR 5UG rectifier. I had many problems with reissued Western Electric 300Bs and eventually stopped using them in my Lampi. That said, the tube rolling lust bit me again and I’m waiting to receive a quartet of NOS Western Electric 101Ds. Fingers crossed. If you want peace of mind, stick to trusted tubes. Or get a great tube tester. I use the Amplitrex. Before I insert any tube in my Pacific I test it extensively with my Amplitrex. If you don’t use a good tube tester with Lampi DACs, you’re playing Russian roulette. They are insanely great DACs but it’s not like you can stick anything into it. It’s plug and pray if you don’t use a great tube tester.
Lampizator Horizon360 - Broadening Our Musical Horizons
- Thread starter Steve williams
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I use the reissued 300B in my air tight. Love them. If these are not considered “trusted tubes” I don’t what are
.If you want really trusted WE 300Bs, go for the original NOS. Yes, they’re considerably more than the reissues. But far far more reliable in my experience. The original WE 300Bs are like Stradivarius violins. No one knows how to make them anymore. The secret is lost. The reissues? I have had too many issues with them in multiple products including SET amplifiers. If you want reasonably priced 300Bs that are reliable, I’d use JJ’s. They’re solid as a rock. As always, YMMV.
I’ve been using NOS WEs for 5 years now, including the ultra rare WE 422a rectifier and the 274B. They’re indestructible. I can’t tell any difference in their lifetime after 5 years. They measure the same. I’m waiting to get NOS WE 101D’s. Their predicted lifetime is over 30,000 hours. I’d like to know which modern tube manufacturer can guarantee their tubes for 30,000 hours. Tube manufacture is a lost art. I had to send back an ultra pricey ARC tube mono block that blew one of its KT150 tubes even though it was an ARC original and ARC measures the heck out of these tubes. They charge more than 2X the regular market price.
Hello All,
I want to take a moment to clarify the message posted by Lukasz, as it seems to have been interpreted beyond its intended context.
Firstly, we are not discouraging tube rolling in our DACs. What we are addressing, however, is the use of exotic tube types that we’ve never encountered, tested, or approved for use in our DACs. These tubes may work perfectly fine, but they also have the potential to cause issues.
Testing the wide range of approved tube permutations is already a significant challenge, as there are literally thousands of them. It is simply impossible to predict, let alone test, tubes that fall far outside the standard parameters—especially those requiring adapters.
While we do have DACs like the Atlantic Tube Roller's Paradise, which is specifically designed for you to enjoy tube rolling, we provide a detailed list of compatible pentodes for you to explore. However, when tube types are completely substituted—for instance, using triodes instead of pentodes in the Atlantic—it becomes difficult for us to anticipate potential issues or support warranty claims.
Even in cases where no damage occurs, problems such as excessive noise can arise from tubes that might appear compatible but aren’t a good match. I hope this illustrates the challenges we face in providing support for such scenarios.
We fully recognize that tube rolling is a big part of Lampi culture, and we’re not trying to restrict this practice. Instead, we encourage everyone to stay closer to the guidelines outlined in our approved tube rolling list to ensure a better experience for all.
Thank you for your understanding and continued support.
Best regards,
Fred A.
I want to take a moment to clarify the message posted by Lukasz, as it seems to have been interpreted beyond its intended context.
Firstly, we are not discouraging tube rolling in our DACs. What we are addressing, however, is the use of exotic tube types that we’ve never encountered, tested, or approved for use in our DACs. These tubes may work perfectly fine, but they also have the potential to cause issues.
Testing the wide range of approved tube permutations is already a significant challenge, as there are literally thousands of them. It is simply impossible to predict, let alone test, tubes that fall far outside the standard parameters—especially those requiring adapters.
While we do have DACs like the Atlantic Tube Roller's Paradise, which is specifically designed for you to enjoy tube rolling, we provide a detailed list of compatible pentodes for you to explore. However, when tube types are completely substituted—for instance, using triodes instead of pentodes in the Atlantic—it becomes difficult for us to anticipate potential issues or support warranty claims.
Even in cases where no damage occurs, problems such as excessive noise can arise from tubes that might appear compatible but aren’t a good match. I hope this illustrates the challenges we face in providing support for such scenarios.
We fully recognize that tube rolling is a big part of Lampi culture, and we’re not trying to restrict this practice. Instead, we encourage everyone to stay closer to the guidelines outlined in our approved tube rolling list to ensure a better experience for all.
Thank you for your understanding and continued support.
Best regards,
Fred A.
As it relates to tube rolling with my Lampi PAC2, my experience "standing on the shoulders of giants" here at WBF has been exceptionally fortuitous. The tubes I have settled on elevated the SQ tremendously beyond what the "stock" tubes provided. High quality adapters provided by @takacs75 have worked flawlessly in enabling semi-exotic tube rolling. And checking in with @LampiNA is always a good idea!
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The issue with exotic tube rolling I my experience is that once you go down that hole you can never go back to stock tubes, so as 2ndLiner says you need to use reliable source and IMHO in our little niche of users there is no one better than @takacs75 for providing the very best of the best boutique tubes and hands down the very best of adapters. I know for a fact that any and all tubes coming from him are thoroughly tested first by Tibor and then independently by @takacs75 in his own Horizon. So yes, caveat emptor but buy with confidence @takacs75 if you're going down that rabbit hole
Great info from one of the aforementioned giants upon who's (or is it whose?) shoulders I have stood
1) Why not create an email or webpage where users can enter their unit, tube, placement and adapter (if used). It could even have a space for uploading photos. Then, a Lampi expert checks and approves the product/placement and offers advice if applicable.
2) Why not work with trusted tube/adapter vendors? Feels like a missed opportunity.
3) Don’t automatically assume every issue reported to you by customers is “bad tubes” and don’t make customers feel like it is their fault. Blame doesn’t help at all in customer service. Reputation for impeccable service is just as important as great sound.
Just some ideas to help, which I genuinely want to do. I want to see Lampi and Lampi culture thrive.
2) Why not work with trusted tube/adapter vendors? Feels like a missed opportunity.
3) Don’t automatically assume every issue reported to you by customers is “bad tubes” and don’t make customers feel like it is their fault. Blame doesn’t help at all in customer service. Reputation for impeccable service is just as important as great sound.
Just some ideas to help, which I genuinely want to do. I want to see Lampi and Lampi culture thrive.
To me, what Lampi did was create create a culture around tube rolling with DACs. They’re not the the first company to have tubed DACs. ARC has had tubed DACs and tubed CD players for decades. But Lampi encouraged tube rolling. And their designs were wild. When I first saw the Pacific, I was like this is crazy. But I bought one anyway. It’s crazy in a good way. It sounds sublime. It breathes analog magic into sterile digital. I’m in awe of what they have accomplished. It’s like Leica in a way. Everyone is releasing digital cameras with a zillion features. Leica is the only camera manufacturer with the guts to release a Leica digital camera that is all manual, has no screen and you have to decide what ISO, exposure etc. it’s like my first Nikon film camera,, the FM2 that was all manual. So it is with Lampi. Can you screw it up? Of course just like taking a picture with a Leica Monochrom with the wrong ISO. But when you get that shot right, it’s like WOW. Same with Lampi. When you get that magical combo of 100-year old tubes that elevate digital to an analog art form. And WBF has been an essential part of my Lampi journey. Can you get burned? Of course. You can always stick to a boring solid state DAC. But you’ll be missing the thrill of a Lampi DAC where you’re the chef. You decide what “meal” you like, what ”seasoning” you want. That’s the Lampi culture. It’s like the experience I used to have rummaging around used vinyl stores finding bargain records for $1. Streaming has killed that experience, but at least we have TRP.
This makes sense. There are a lot of approved tubes to roll, but if people are trying new tubes especially with adaptors and not tested before, check with Lampi.
I did that when I tried Ayon’s 32b and 62b in place of 300b.
I chose Horizon because of tube rolling and I like tubes. I think tube rolling gives tube DAC a niche. Because we could change the sound to our preference by tubes rolling. I have paid $50k+ for DAC which is expensive. I think people who spend so much money on their systems do expect good support from manufacturers. If I knew they won’t be happy if something goes wrong , I would not choose their products. I feel Lampizator doesn’t take into account that support is part of their business cost. Complaints against their good clients are real bad for business . I want to remind Lampizator that I am not the person who made $ 100 from an adaptor. I am a person who choose to let Lampizator to make a profit $10,000 from me.
From my point of view I am willing to take the consequences of voiding my warranty if I go outside of the recommended list of tubes/adapters. As for how to judge whether a warranty was in fact voided when a DAC is burnt and up for repair, I think Lampi might just have to trust what the client says in good faith.
Please don't confuse proper support with coming up for the huge repair costs caused by reckless daredevil tube rollers sticking in anything at hand without even consulting with the Lampi Crew BEFORE if those tubes in question are possible to use in their DAC.
Our big group of Lampi friends tried dozens and dozens of different tubes in our several different Lampi DACs AFTER asking the Lampi Crew if those exact tubes are possible/allowed to use in that exact DAC and only AFTER the approval of Lampi we tried those exact tubes.
We did really serious tube rolling in our big group and I'm not aware of one single defective DAC from that.
If I would be so crazy to just stick in anything without even asking Lampi and then destroy the DAC, at least I would be grown up enough to admit my mistake and pay for the damage!
Would you say Lampi has to pay for the repair of a damage caused by not approved tubes, no matter what?
If you really mean that, I strongly disagree with you.
I agree completely with the above. I dont take Lampi. comments as destructive in any way. They IMO have revolutionized the tube DAC industry. However as Christoph states , this isnt an open book where the sky's the limit. I don't think user error resulting in blow up of the DAC is fair to expect Lampi to front the costs of these repairs
Herein lies the crux of the matter
Herein lies the crux of the matter
I think this makes perfect sense and is why so much tube rolling has happened in this community safely and to the great benefit of myself and others, increasing SQ dramatically and also resulting in much fun. I never had a single issue with my Pacific or Horizon. But checking in needs to be policy, clearly articulated and Lampi needs to make that process easier and clearer. If I used a bad tube and caused an issue, like Christoph said, I would man up, admit it and pay for the damage if necessary. However, i didn’t change a single tube in my VP4 and was accused of doing so twice. That said, the product was repaired and is functioning fine now. Without a clear checking in process, there will be lots of potential for mistrust between company and customer. Investing in solid support infrastructure is key to selling more products, as it is, for me at least, an important selling point.
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Let's face it: tubes are *never* going to be as reliable as solid state equipment (not that the latter can't fail, they do!). Tubes can fail at any point, and what's that well-worn cliche', if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen! If you can't deal with the stress of tube failures, well, stick to solid state gear. Case in point: I spent a ton of moolah acquiring a pair of magnificent giant ARC 750SE's tube behemoths (each mono block weighs close to 200 pounds!). They radiate heat like a pair of dragons from GOT. But, in the last 40+ years, I have never heard better sounding amplifiers, and I've owned plenty of high priced gear. Shortly after acquiring them, I had to send them back to ARC for repair as an output tube blew, and in the classic ARC fashion, took out one of their sacrificial resistor. I couldn't fix the problem at my end, even given ARC's detailed instructions. ARC happily took them in, checked both amplifiers closely, replaced the bad tube, measured every tube, and ran it in their listening room for over 24 hours, and declared them to be working. Since I got them back, they've been great for over 2 months of daily listening. Yes, it was a pain in the b*** to ship them back, cost me a bundle, and I was a nervous anxious audiophile when turning them back on. But, they've been fixed and are sounding as glorious as they were before the failure. Murphy's law: if something can go wrong, it *will* go wrong. You can't help it.
So, it's a tradeoff. I could vastly simplify my life, and stick to "boring" class D amplifiers (of which I have several). Or I can suffer through the tortures of having a pair of giant massive ARC dragons that just sound glorious on my Soundlab 9' tall behemoths. I chose the latter. That's what WBF is all about: extreme audiophile madness at the sake of hearing the ultimate in music reproduction.
So, it's a tradeoff. I could vastly simplify my life, and stick to "boring" class D amplifiers (of which I have several). Or I can suffer through the tortures of having a pair of giant massive ARC dragons that just sound glorious on my Soundlab 9' tall behemoths. I chose the latter. That's what WBF is all about: extreme audiophile madness at the sake of hearing the ultimate in music reproduction.
i think this is the third time now you have conveyed this on this thread, (getting blamed twice for a bad tube when you had not switched a tube at all), very politely and in a constructive manner. and noone is stepping up to admit they blamed you or clarify their position for such blame or clarifying lampizator’s position on potential damage and how things are to be handled.
i find this the primary concern from the last 4-5 pages of this thread. (as an aside, just rolled tubes #104-109 in horizon v1, v2 w xdmi and now 360, and never have had one issue. and this latest combo has my jaw on the floor. the horizon’s potential is astonishing)
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I was explicitely NOT talking about you.
It almost looks like you are unfortunately "collateral damage" because of some dishonest other people. This should NOT have happened.
I know you are a decent and honest person.
I hope someone from Lampi will contact you soon.
Did you leave some form of contact data so they can reach you, not within this forum?
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