Lampizator Horizon360 - Broadening Our Musical Horizons

[heihei]

Congrats on another UK-based 360! What is the rest of the system?

 

[simonthepieman]

Congrats on another UK-based 360! What is the rest of the system?

Hello Heihei

LDMS server, Music first Ref pre amp, Active ATC's scm150a floor standing speakers

 

[christoph]

I agree that this is system dependent. I also have found that the initial “just use the same old H1 set” is faulty. The 360 is a very different sound from H1. It makes sense that some rolling may be in store for many of us. I am honing in. I dont think a full new set is necessary, but if you find the 360 different, why not try some other tubes you have on hand?

What were your top dog tubes in the H1 and which ones are your preferred tubes now in the H360?

 

[Golum]

What were your top dog tubes in the H1 and which ones are your preferred tubes now in the H360?

Why don't you rather tell us how your 360 is doing? And with what tubes...

 

[Sampajanna]

What were your top dog tubes in the H1 and which ones are your preferred tubes now in the H360?

I am still rolling around. My issues are perhaps not shared by many as I have a small room and thus bass issues, which the 360 exacerbated. But it brings so much good to the table, it is a worthy trade off. I started by going back to the 2504 recti which improved things. Now experimenting with Gollums Ecc32 and the 31, which I also love. I am using the e55l as well, which are marvelous tubes

 

[Steve williams]

I have a smallish room as well plus I have the 9 volt version of the H360 before people found they had clipping and Lukasz reverted back to 5v output. Having said that I have found no need to change my tubes. In fact I sold an NOS quad matched set of brown base Mullard ECC32 as I still am using my Valvo G2504 solid plate, TFKN EF802 and TFKN E55L. My preamp had no issues

 

[Sampajanna]

I have a smallish room as well plus I have the 9 volt version of the H360 before people found they had clipping and Lukasz reverted back to 5v output. Having said that I have found no need to change my tubes. In fact I sold an NOS quad matched set of brown base Mullard ECC32 as I still am using my Valvo G2504 solid plate, TFKN EF802 and TFKN E55L. My preamp had no issues

I have the 9v version too, but no preamp so this is not an issue for me, nor the source of bass problems. M main room issue is that i cannot put treatment where the main issue is due to unique function of the room. I am currently using the ef802 and e555l as well. Wonderful tubes. Experimenting with Ecc32 and 31 as well, though.

 

[Ron Resnick]

In this interview Lukasz discusses:

-- the origin of the Horizon360
-- technical differences between the original Horizon and the Horizon360
--sonic differences between the original Horizon and the Horizon360
-- the evolution of the Taiko Audio XDMI interface
-- sonic differences between USB and XDMI

 

[greenfish]

In this interview Lukasz discusses:

-- the origin of the Horizon360
-- technical differences between the original Horizon and the Horizon360
--sonic differences between the original Horizon and the Horizon360
-- the evolution of the Taiko Audio XDMI interface
-- sonic differences between USB and XDMI

I have received a message from Lampizator. It says a lot of DAC were burned because of tube rolling . Does anybody else has received such a message ?

The message :
ABOUT TUBE ROLLING.
We are very concerned with the number of issues that arise from tube rolling.
At first when we announced the Atlantic2 with EL34 compatibility, what we meant was that there are MANY EL-34’s out there to try.
By all means we did not mean that any octal base tube can be inserted there.
Now 3 years later people go literally nuts with trying super exotic unknow tubes into every dac we make and in every tube position. Some experiments are really extreme. DACS and tubes are getting destroyed in the process by means of using badly spaced out pins in the adapters, bad adapters, bad tubes etc.
We suffere the consequences of all that - our reputation, the longevity of the DACs, our service resources being tied up, our logistics doing nothing else but shipping mistreated DACS for repairs.

Consequently we decided to withdraw ALL AND ANY SUPPORT for tube rolling thats outside of specifically permitted adventures like using KT66 in place of EL34 etc but not anything with adapters. The allowed tubes for rolling are in the DAC sales spec sheet (test report) and in the website page of given DAC and we stop there.
The repairs of DACs damaged by crazy tube rolling will be very costly, reflecting the time we could build a new DAC by the same resources.)
Please dont encourage tube rolling - we are not a hobby ring, not amusement business, and we dont work for the adapter makers. We want a RELIABLE DAC and a happy customer.
We just spent circa 100 thousand dollars stocking great attractive tubes and I am not keen on having these tubes disposed of immediately by the end user to make room for some 70 years old monstrosity with different pinout, different specs and different sound . And the end user going on line to public forums asking : “Hey guys, my Horizon just smoked, do you know what to do ?” In that scenario - the adapter guy makes 100$ profit, the tube guy makes $100 profit, and we take 2000$ loss for the repair burden. This has to stop.
Also - the DAC is designed to prevent a catastrophic damage if the tube fails or something normal happens, but it CAN NOT prevent the bad adapter with wrong tube type. The protection against ANY THING GOES scenario would cost more than the DAC itself and would suck the whoile life from the sound.

So of course people who own our DACS can do whatever they want, but we change the position from mildly supportive to openly against.

 

[plasmod3]

My horizon had never had an issue I doubt anyone has gone as far as I have with any horizon though not even our favourite adaptor guys here.

So it's not about tube rolling but it is more about ppl taking brave jumps when they don't know what they are doing and the impact of which. In short he is discouraging the me-too and me-wants not the me-gurus. Know though that when I did what I did to my dac I expected no warranty and no claims, it's a step past the red line that ended up working most beautifully

 

[Sampajanna]

I have experienced directly the issue that I have with this policy. It has a gray area that is unacceptable, wherein something can go wrong and the user can be accused of using “bad tubes” even though they never did change tubes. I experienced this problem directly with my VP4 Silver phono stage. Now I understand why. It was suggested that the issues I had were caused by “bad tubes” even though I had never changed the tubes once. Understanding this situation, I obviously have more compassion for Lampi and where they are coming from. But they will need to create an articulate policy or else every issue can just be labeled as off warranty and there is no way an amateur user with little understanding of electronics will be able to prove they didn’t use “bad tubes” or “bad adapters.” In the end, this will create trust issues between customers and Lampi that will not be healthy. I wouldn’t want that, as I love the company and the products. I am a fan. I was treated poorly. I understand why now. Hope it doesn’t happen to others and that Lampi can resolve this issue.

As for my Horizon, I have not ever had any issues with a tube or adapter. But I will be more careful. Wouldn’t a proper list of tubes and adapater manufacturers be helpful? People want to tube roll. It is a huge selling point for these products. They need to be guided in that so that it can be done in a fun and safe way. Smoking Horizons due to poor tubes choices is no good.

I am positive still toward Lampi. These products have brought me great joy. I sincerely am a big fan and would recommend them to anyone. I hope they can figure this confusing landscape out and provide great service to match their wonderful sound.

 

[Steve williams]

I have experienced directly the issue that I have with this policy. It has a gray area that is unacceptable, wherein something can go wrong and the user can be accused of using “bad tubes” even though they never did change tubes. I experienced this problem directly with my VP4 Silver phono stage. Now I understand why. It was suggested that the issues I had were caused by “bad tubes” even though I had never changed the tubes once. Understanding this situation, I obviously have more compassion for Lampi and where they are coming from. But they will need to create an articulate policy or else every issue can just be labeled as off warranty and there is no way an amateur user with little understanding of electronics will be able to prove they didn’t use “bad tubes” or “bad adapters.” In the end, this will create trust issues between customers and Lampi that will not be healthy. I wouldn’t want that, as I love the company and the products. I am a fan. I was treated poorly. I understand why now. Hope it doesn’t happen to others and that Lampi can resolve this issue.

As for my Horizon, I have not ever had any issues with a tube or adapter. But I will be more careful. Wouldn’t a proper list of tubes and adapater manufacturers be helpful? People want to tube roll. It is a huge selling point for these products. They need to be guided in that so that it can be done in a fun and safe way. Smoking Horizons due to poor tubes choices is no good.

I am positive still toward Lampi. These products have brought me great joy. I sincerely am a big fan and would recommend them to anyone. I hope they can figure this confusing landscape out and provide great service to match their wonderful sound.

find the tube kit that lights you up, find back ups and call it a day as you sit back and enjoy the music. It is very tempting to continue down that rabbit hole. I've been there done that. Words to the wise however, is never post here how good a tube is until you have purchased back ups. Guaranteed that once some one posts about the miracles of a tube, the next day they will be twice the price and quickly unobtainium. Believe it or not this thread has become the culprit for world wide shortages of these tubes. Once they're gone, they're gone

 

[ctydwn]

agree @Sampajanna nice post
have rolled (and still have) over 100 tubes (90% NOS including rectifiers with adaptors) on 2 different Horizons (v1/2) and one Horizon 360 without a single problem. i am over 6 years between pacifics and horizons without a single issue including with tubes themselves and over two dozen adaptors. as Lampizator Horizon manual said - we leave the tube rolling fun up to you, enjoy!
really sorry to hear you were blamed for a bad tube when you had not changed anything @Sampajanna

I have heard nothing about tube complications until @greenfish ’s post yesterday. kind of shocked the language posted from lampizator, if it really is a quote from them (eg “we decided to WITHDRAW ANY AND ALL SUPPORT for tube rolling“, “we dont encourage tube rolling - we are not a hobby ring, not amusement business, and we dont work for the adapter makers. We want a RELIABLE DAC and a happy customer”. ). ?! who is writing this from Lampizator and why has it not been communicated more broadly if true?

i would suggest transparency and guidance from lampizator quickly for this community if there is a reason to be concerned around any tube rolling, adapter using or mechanical use/tube insertion, with specificity regarding what is or is not supported by the best tube DAC manufacturer in the world and any implication on repairs and warranty.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Everybody knows I love LampizatOr, but this sudden admonition -- very late in the tube swapping day -- against tube swapping strikes an odd note.

One of the earlier LampizatOr models was named TRP. Was this considered an acronym of "tube rollers paradise" by LampizatOr? Or did a happy, tube rolling owner make up that nickname?

 

[Golum]

Lets be realistic, and this is purely my view on the topic, I believe things got out of the hand and people started plugging in the DACs xyz tubes for which my humble opinion is that they never asked Lampi if its safe to run that particular type. For myself I know that I always asked Lampi if I may plug something if it was never used before or mentioned in the manual. If answer was yes, with or without adapter, I did it. If no then no. I'm happily using their products for almost a decade now with ZERO tube issues following my approach.
First thing which pops my mind are 4V rectifiers - yes they run but DACs were developed with 5V heater so adapter with resistor is needed for the 4V rectifiers. Not really how they planned their use nor how Lampi did the circutry around.
TRP - yes it is Tube Rollers Paradise and the tubes are again specified, as they are for the pentodes in Horizon, but out of the specified tubes you have xyz different producers, NOS not NOS, etc., etc., with mulitple variations but we went into territories which were not outlined in the manual. And I count myself in again, who with approval tried super many options...
So in nutshell I dig Lukasz as if DACs start blowing, ultimately blame will be on them and rarely people will say - oh I plugged a non tested tube from 1934 with the adapter as I heard it works perfectly and voila some smoke appears..
Rolling IS a strong selling point for Lampi with massive amount of options available even within the approved tube types hence enjoy it guys. Lots of stuff to explore.

 

[plasmod3]

I have experienced directly the issue that I have with this policy. It has a gray area that is unacceptable, wherein something can go wrong and the user can be accused of using “bad tubes” even though they never did change tubes. I experienced this problem directly with my VP4 Silver phono stage. Now I understand why. It was suggested that the issues I had were caused by “bad tubes” even though I had never changed the tubes once. Understanding this situation, I obviously have more compassion for Lampi and where they are coming from. But they will need to create an articulate policy or else every issue can just be labeled as off warranty and there is no way an amateur user with little understanding of electronics will be able to prove they didn’t use “bad tubes” or “bad adapters.” In the end, this will create trust issues between customers and Lampi that will not be healthy. I wouldn’t want that, as I love the company and the products. I am a fan. I was treated poorly. I understand why now. Hope it doesn’t happen to others and that Lampi can resolve this issue.

As for my Horizon, I have not ever had any issues with a tube or adapter. But I will be more careful. Wouldn’t a proper list of tubes and adapater manufacturers be helpful? People want to tube roll. It is a huge selling point for these products. They need to be guided in that so that it can be done in a fun and safe way. Smoking Horizons due to poor tubes choices is no good.

I am positive still toward Lampi. These products have brought me great joy. I sincerely am a big fan and would recommend them to anyone. I hope they can figure this confusing landscape out and provide great service to match their wonderful sound.

I will message you

 

[shadowlight]

Lets be realistic, and this is purely my view on the topic, I believe things got out of the hand and people started plugging in the DACs xyz tubes for which my humble opinion is that they never asked Lampi if its safe to run that particular type. For myself I know that I always asked Lampi if I may plug something if it was never used before or mentioned in the manual. If answer was yes, with or without adapter, I did it. If no then no. I'm happily using their products for almost a decade now with ZERO tube issues following my approach.
First thing which pops my mind are 4V rectifiers - yes they run but DACs were developed with 5V heater so adapter with resistor is needed for the 4V rectifiers. Not really how they planned their use nor how Lampi did the circutry around.
TRP - yes it is Tube Rollers Paradise and the tubes are again specified, as they are for the pentodes in Horizon, but out of the specified tubes you have xyz different producers, NOS not NOS, etc., etc., with mulitple variations but we went into territories which were not outlined in the manual. And I count myself in again, who with approval tried super many options...
So in nutshell I dig Lukasz as if DACs start blowing, ultimately blame will be on them and rarely people will say - oh I plugged a non tested tube from 1934 with the adapter as I heard it works perfectly and voila some smoke appears..
Rolling IS a strong selling point for Lampi with massive amount of options available even within the approved tube types hence enjoy it guys. Lots of stuff to explore.

I have done similar thing as @Golum. Checked in before trying something. Recently, I got a Poseidon Dac and came across 6cb5a on Vinylsavor (sp?) website. Checked in with Lampizator Poland and was told that with the heater current required for that tube I am likely to fry the transformer. Quickly, came to conclusion that it’s better to walk away from that experiment.

 

[Steve williams]

I have done similar thing as @Golum. Checked in before trying something. Recently, I got a Poseidon Dac and came across 6cb5a on Vinylsavor (sp?) website. Checked in with Lampizator Poland and was told that with the heater current required for that tube I am likely to fry the transformer. Quickly, came to conclusion that it’s better to walk away from that experiment.

Tube rolling is certainly a lot of fun. The rewards can be great but the pitfalls devastating. Follow @Golum advice and you’ll never go wrong

 

[Sampajanna]

So in nutshell I dig Lukasz as if DACs start blowing, ultimately blame will be on them and rarely people will say - oh I plugged a non tested tube from 1934 with the adapter as I heard it works perfectly and voila some smoke appears..

This is my issue with this policy. My experience demonstrates the issue. It creates mistrust on both sides—each skeptical of what the other is saying and will cause issues.

My problem was that I was accused of using “bad tubes,” when I hadn’t changed a single tube. I said that and could feel I wasn’t trusted. (Now I know why but at the time, I thought “Geez, what kind of customers are you dealing with.”) Then, I suggested that since I hadn’t changed a tube the issue must lie elsewhere and since the repair focus is in the wrong direction, the problem will recur. Sure enough, a month after the initial repair, the same problem happened again. And, believe it or not, I was accused of using “bad tubes” a second time (which I hadn’t in the first or second place.) Understanding what Lampi has been dealing with helps me understand and feel a bit better with how I was treated. I am NOT sharing this to complain, but to help offer advice toward better service and support—to match the class-leading, breath-stealing sound they create. As I said, I am a fan. I remain a fan and would recommend Lampi to anyone who asks. The sound is unbelievable!

This is my issue in a nutshell: If any problem can be out-warrantied for “bad tubes,” who and how will that be arbitrated. How does a bozo like me prove that I didn’t use “bad tubes” when I lack the knowledge to do so?

I agree with Gollum, Lampi should offer the service of check-ins, with lists of tubes and adapters from trusted sources. As a businessman, I see opportunity here rather than these politics. Personally, I would create a tube department and begin collaborating with vendors of tubes and adapters and offer better manuals with clear support on which tubes and how to use them. The cost of creating such support will be less than fixing problems caused by misuse and the bigger problem of no one trusting each other, which is disastrous.

Just my two cents. I appreciate everyone at Lampi and here. This community of Horizon users is wonderful and has helped me tremendously.

P.S. I am keeping my VP4 and Horizon. Wouldn’t trade them for anything!

 

[ctydwn]

to get blamed for using ‘bad tubes’ when u hadn’t changed a tube, not once but twice…. damn.

and again there hasn’t been any communication, at least that i have received, about what has been going on regarding blown dacs and the number of strong statements, including ‘mistreated dacs’, that are costing the company $ as in @greenfish ’s post (which starts about Atlantic2 but also mentions the Horizon). “we change the position from mildly supportive to openly against”?.

it does seem like this could have been nipped in the bud with some clear guidance about tube rolling as well as what voids a warranty etc. it definitely would have informed what i try/buy. does using an adaptor void warranty on the $60k usd horizon 360? horizon has been out for quite awhile now.